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From: Christian Schoenebeck <qemu_oss@crudebyte.com>
To: "Dr. David Alan Gilbert" <dgilbert@redhat.com>,
	Miklos Szeredi <miklos@szeredi.hu>
Cc: Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>,
	"Theodore Y. Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>,
	Frank van der Linden <fllinden@amazon.com>,
	Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>, Greg Kurz <groug@kaod.org>,
	linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org,
	Stefan Hajnoczi <stefanha@redhat.com>,
	Miklos Szeredi <mszeredi@redhat.com>,
	Vivek Goyal <vgoyal@redhat.com>,
	Giuseppe Scrivano <gscrivan@redhat.com>,
	Daniel J Walsh <dwalsh@redhat.com>,
	Chirantan Ekbote <chirantan@chromium.org>
Subject: Re: file forks vs. xattr (was: xattr names for unprivileged stacking?)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 11:11:15 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <11755866.l6z0jNX47O@silver> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200827162935.GC2837@work-vm>

On Donnerstag, 27. August 2020 16:44:52 CEST Al Viro wrote:
> > No matter which delimiter you'd choose, something will break. It is just
> > about how much will it break und how likely it'll be in practice, not if.
> ... which means NAK.  We don't break userland without very good reasons and
> support for anyone's pet feature is not one of those.  It's as simple as
> that.
> 
> > If you are concerned about not breaking anything: keep forks disabled.
> 
> s/disabled/out of tree/
> 
> One general note: the arguments along the lines of "don't enable that,
> then" are either ignorant or actively dishonest; it really doesn't work
> that way, as we'd learnt quite a few times by now.  There's no such
> thing as "optional feature" - *any* feature, no matter how useless,
> might end up a dependency (no matter how needless) of something that
> would force distros to enable it.  We'd been down that road too many
> times to keep pretending that it doesn't happen.

Well, it could be an option per mounted fs, but I know -> NAK.

On Donnerstag, 27. August 2020 18:29:35 CEST Dr. David Alan Gilbert wrote:
> * Al Viro (viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk) wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 04:23:24PM +0200, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> > > Be invited for making better suggestions. But one thing please: don't
> > > start
> > > getting offending.
> > > 
> > > No matter which delimiter you'd choose, something will break. It is just
> > > about how much will it break und how likely it'll be in practice, not
> > > if.> 
> > ... which means NAK.  We don't break userland without very good reasons
> > and
> > support for anyone's pet feature is not one of those.  It's as simple as
> > that.
> 
> I'm curious how much people expect to use these forks from existing
> programs - do people expect to be able to do something and edit a fork
> using their favorite editor or cat/grep/etc them?

Built-in path resolution would be nice, but it won't be a show stopper for 
such common utils if not. For instance on Solaris there is:

runat <filename> <cmd> ...

which works something like fchdir(); execv(); you loose some flexibility, but 
in practice still OK.

> I say that because if they do, then having a special syscall to open
> the fork wont fly; and while I agree that any form of suffix is a lost
> cause, I wonder what else is possible (although if it wasn't for the
> internal difficulties, I do have a soft spot for things that look like
> both files and directories showing the forks; but I realise I'm weird
> there).

It seems to be both a file & dir feature on all systems that have that 
concept. So people would expect it for dirs on Linux as well.

Best regards,
Christian Schoenebeck



  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-08-28  9:11 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 62+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-07-28 10:55 xattr names for unprivileged stacking? Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-07-28 13:08 ` Greg Kurz
2020-07-28 13:55   ` Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-04 11:28     ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-08-04 13:51       ` Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-12 11:18         ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-08-12 13:34           ` Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-12 14:33             ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-08-13  9:01               ` Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-16 22:56                 ` Dave Chinner
2020-08-16 23:09                   ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-17  0:29                     ` Dave Chinner
2020-08-17 10:37                       ` file forks vs. xattr (was: xattr names for unprivileged stacking?) Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-23 23:40                         ` Dave Chinner
2020-08-24 15:30                           ` Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-24 20:01                             ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-24 21:26                             ` Frank van der Linden
2020-08-24 22:29                             ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2020-08-25 15:12                               ` Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-25 15:32                                 ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-27 12:02                                   ` Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-27 12:25                                     ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-27 13:48                                       ` Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-27 14:01                                         ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-27 14:23                                           ` Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-27 14:25                                             ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-27 14:44                                             ` Al Viro
2020-08-27 16:29                                               ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-08-27 16:35                                                 ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-28  9:11                                                 ` Christian Schoenebeck [this message]
2020-08-28 14:46                                                   ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2020-08-27 15:22                       ` xattr names for unprivileged stacking? Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-27 22:24                         ` Dave Chinner
2020-08-29 16:07                           ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-29 16:13                             ` Al Viro
2020-08-29 17:51                               ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-29 18:04                                 ` Al Viro
2020-08-29 18:22                                   ` Christian Schoenebeck
2020-08-29 19:13                                   ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-29 19:25                                     ` Al Viro
2020-08-30 19:05                                       ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-30 19:10                                         ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-31  7:34                                           ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-31 11:37                                             ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-31 11:51                                               ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-31 13:23                                                 ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-31 14:21                                                   ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-31 14:25                                                   ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2020-08-31 14:45                                                     ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-31 14:49                                                       ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-09-01  3:34                                                     ` Dave Chinner
2020-09-01 14:52                                                       ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2020-09-01 15:14                                                         ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2020-09-02  5:19                                                           ` Dave Chinner
2020-08-31 18:02                                                   ` Andreas Dilger
2020-09-01  3:48                                                     ` Dave Chinner
2020-08-29 19:17                               ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-29 19:40                                 ` Al Viro
2020-08-29 20:12                                   ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-31 14:23                                     ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2020-08-31 14:40                                       ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-08-31 16:11                                       ` Christian Schoenebeck

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