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From: "Mickaël Salaün" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
To: Pavel Machek <email@example.com>,
"Madhavan T. Venkataraman" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Cc: email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org,
email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org, David.Laight@ACULAB.COM,
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 0/4] [RFC] Implement Trampoline File Descriptor
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 18:44:26 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <email@example.com> (raw)
On 23/09/2020 22:51, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>> Scenario 2
>>>> We know what code we need in advance. User trampolines are a good example of
>>>> this. It is possible to define such code statically with some help from the
>>>> This RFC addresses (2). (1) needs a general purpose trusted code generator
>>>> and is out of scope for this RFC.
>>> This is slightly less crazy talk than introduction talking about holes
>>> in W^X. But it is very, very far from normal Unix system, where you
>>> have selection of interpretters to run your malware on (sh, python,
>>> awk, emacs, ...) and often you can even compile malware from sources.
>>> And as you noted, we don't have "a general purpose trusted code
>>> generator" for our systems.
>>> I believe you should simply delete confusing "introduction" and
>>> provide details of super-secure system where your patches would be
>>> useful, instead.
>> This RFC talks about converting dynamic code (which cannot be authenticated)
>> to static code that can be authenticated using signature verification. That
>> is the scope of this RFC.
>> If I have not been clear before, by dynamic code, I mean machine code that is
>> dynamic in nature. Scripts are beyond the scope of this RFC.
>> Also, malware compiled from sources is not dynamic code. That is orthogonal
>> to this RFC. If such malware has a valid signature that the kernel permits its
>> execution, we have a systemic problem.
>> I am not saying that script authentication or compiled malware are not problems.
>> I am just saying that this RFC is not trying to solve all of the security problems.
>> It is trying to define one way to convert dynamic code to static code to address
>> one class of problems.
> Well, you don't have to solve all problems at once.
> But solutions have to exist, and AFAIK in this case they don't. You
> are armoring doors, but ignoring open windows.
FYI, script execution is being addressed (for the kernel part) by this
> Or very probably you are thinking about something different than
> normal desktop distros (Debian 10). Because on my systems, I have
> python, gdb and gcc...
It doesn't make sense for a tailored security system to leave all these
tools available to an attacker.
> It would be nice to specify what other pieces need to be present for
> this to make sense -- because it makes no sense on Debian 10.
Not all kernel features make sense for a generic/undefined usage,
especially specific security mechanisms (e.g. SELinux, Smack, Tomoyo,
SafeSetID, LoadPin, IMA, IPE, secure/trusted boot, lockdown, etc.), but
they can still be definitely useful.
> Best regards,
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-09-24 16:45 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 50+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <210d7cd762d5307c2aa1676705b392bd445f1baa>
2020-09-16 15:08 ` madvenka
2020-09-16 15:08 ` [PATCH v2 1/4] [RFC] fs/trampfd: Implement the trampoline file descriptor API madvenka
2020-09-16 15:08 ` [PATCH v2 2/4] [RFC] x86/trampfd: Provide support for the trampoline file descriptor madvenka
2020-09-16 15:08 ` [PATCH v2 3/4] [RFC] arm64/trampfd: " madvenka
2020-09-16 15:08 ` [PATCH v2 4/4] [RFC] arm/trampfd: " madvenka
2020-09-17 1:04 ` [PATCH v2 0/4] [RFC] Implement Trampoline File Descriptor Florian Weimer
2020-09-17 15:36 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-17 15:57 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-17 16:01 ` Florian Weimer
2020-09-23 1:46 ` Arvind Sankar
2020-09-23 9:11 ` Arvind Sankar
2020-09-23 19:17 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-23 19:51 ` Arvind Sankar
2020-09-23 23:51 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-24 20:23 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-24 20:52 ` Florian Weimer
2020-09-25 22:22 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-27 18:25 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-24 22:13 ` Pavel Machek
2020-09-24 23:43 ` Arvind Sankar
2020-09-25 22:44 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-26 15:55 ` Arvind Sankar
2020-09-27 17:59 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-22 21:53 ` madvenka
2020-09-22 21:53 ` [PATCH v2 1/4] [RFC] fs/trampfd: Implement the trampoline file descriptor API madvenka
2020-09-22 21:53 ` [PATCH v2 2/4] [RFC] x86/trampfd: Provide support for the trampoline file descriptor madvenka
2020-09-22 21:53 ` [PATCH v2 3/4] [RFC] arm64/trampfd: " madvenka
2020-09-22 21:53 ` [PATCH v2 4/4] [RFC] arm/trampfd: " madvenka
2020-09-22 21:54 ` [PATCH v2 0/4] [RFC] Implement Trampoline File Descriptor Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-23 8:14 ` Pavel Machek
2020-09-23 9:14 ` Solar Designer
2020-09-23 14:11 ` Solar Designer
2020-09-23 15:18 ` Pavel Machek
2020-09-23 18:00 ` Solar Designer
2020-09-23 18:21 ` Solar Designer
2020-09-23 14:39 ` Florian Weimer
2020-09-23 18:09 ` Andy Lutomirski
2020-09-23 18:11 ` Solar Designer
2020-09-23 18:49 ` Arvind Sankar
2020-09-23 23:53 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-23 19:41 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-23 18:10 ` James Morris
2020-09-23 18:32 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-23 8:42 ` Pavel Machek
2020-09-23 18:56 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-23 20:51 ` Pavel Machek
2020-09-23 23:04 ` Madhavan T. Venkataraman
2020-09-24 16:44 ` Mickaël Salaün [this message]
2020-09-24 22:05 ` Pavel Machek
2020-09-25 10:12 ` Mickaël Salaün
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