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From: David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
Cc: Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [patch] MTD: fix DOC2000/2001/2001PLUS build error
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:52:20 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1170694340.29759.883.camel@pmac.infradead.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0702050829360.8424@woody.linux-foundation.org>

On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 08:32 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > 
> > Secondly, please don't _ever_ use 'select'.
> 
> No, David.
> 
> I don't know why you keep repeating this mantra, when it's WRONG.

It may not shock you to find that I repeat it because I disagree.

> Using "select" is a lot more sane and intelligent than assuming that users 
> know what dependencies they want.
>
> The Kconfig files should ask about *end-user* visible features. They 
> should say "do you want to support X".

For the benefit of some, that's useful. Others still want to be able to
turn off entire subsystems when they don't compile or when they want to
quickly build a minimal kernel. It's become very hard to do that though.

> If "X" then needs Y, Z and something else to actually compile, then that 
> Kconfig file should DAMN WELL use "select". Stop claiming anything else!

I agree that the tools should let them do that easily. It doesn't
necessarily follow that we should use 'select' for that purpose.

> The user shouldn't know that they should say that they need some library Y 
> in order to even see the question for "X". It's not a sane thing to ask 
> them to know and care about. They care about the devices or capabilities 
> they want to support, not about the fact that a USB storage device needs 
> the SCSI core layer, for example.

This I agree with. And it's something which the _tools_ have been
capable of for a long time. You don't need 'select'. 

The problem is that the widespread and inconsistent use of 'select' for
Aunt Tillie's benefit causes problems for a _different_ set of people.
To use Ingo's example -- if I want to turn off CONFIG_I2C because it
doesn't build or I want it modular to hack on it, I want to be able to
just _do_ that.

I don't want to find that it's forced to 'Y' because I also happen to be
building support for some esoteric peripheral that I've never heard of.
I want that that peripheral to be turned _off_ when I turn I2C off. I
don't want to have to spend hours grepping _all_ over the tree to find
out what's forcing I2C on again. When it was just dependencies, it was
easy enough to find -- it was right there in the Kconfig file in one
place. Now it's a lot harder.

And I'm sure you aren't seriously suggesting that we should take it all
the way and that, for example, all SCSI host drivers should 'select
SCSI' rather than merely depending on SCSI? If I configure a kernel I
don't _want_ to be asked individually about every leaf option -- I want
to be able to turn stuff off in an orderly fashion; in a tree as Ingo
suggests.

-- 
dwmw2


  parent reply	other threads:[~2007-02-05 16:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 95+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2007-02-04 19:10 Super Kernel Sunday! Linus Torvalds
2007-02-04 19:40 ` Bauke Jan Douma
2007-02-04 21:00   ` Gene Heskett
2007-02-04 21:11   ` Kevin K
2007-02-04 19:56 ` Alessandro Suardi
2007-02-05  8:39 ` Jonathan Sambrook
2007-02-05  8:45 ` [patch] MTD: fix DOC2000/2001/2001PLUS build error Ingo Molnar
2007-02-05 13:06   ` Josh Boyer
2007-02-05 13:34   ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-05 15:56     ` Ingo Molnar
2007-02-05 16:08       ` Arjan van de Ven
2007-02-05 16:12       ` Russell King
2007-02-05 16:17         ` Ingo Molnar
2007-02-05 16:22       ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-05 16:26         ` Ingo Molnar
2007-02-05 16:31           ` Ingo Molnar
2007-02-05 16:58             ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-05 17:05               ` Ingo Molnar
2007-02-05 17:08               ` Russell King
2007-02-05 21:15               ` Ingo Oeser
2007-02-06 13:32                 ` Gerhard Mack
2007-02-05 21:17               ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-05 21:28                 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-05 21:39                   ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-05 21:49                     ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-05 21:53                       ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-05 22:21                         ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-05 22:31                           ` Randy Dunlap
2007-02-05 23:09                             ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-05 23:21                               ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-05 23:32                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-06  0:04                                   ` Mark Rustad
2007-02-06 15:55                                     ` Bill Davidsen
2007-02-06 16:20                                       ` Mark Rustad
2007-02-06  9:45                                   ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-06 15:51                                     ` Bill Davidsen
2007-02-06 16:53                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-06 22:38                                       ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-06 22:39                                         ` Randy Dunlap
2007-02-06 23:11                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-06 23:15                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-06 23:18                                             ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-06 23:49                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-06 22:53                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-06 23:11                                           ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-06 23:28                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-06 23:36                                               ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-06 23:41                                                 ` Randy Dunlap
2007-02-06 23:49                                                   ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-06 23:52                                                   ` Robert P. J. Day
2007-02-06 23:55                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-07  0:03                                                   ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-07  0:21                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-07  0:30                                                       ` Randy Dunlap
2007-02-07  0:37                                                       ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-07  2:09                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-07 13:51                                                       ` Sunil Naidu
2007-02-06  1:09                                 ` Theodore Tso
2007-02-06  6:09                                   ` Matt Mackall
2007-02-06 16:04                                     ` Bill Davidsen
2007-02-06 16:41                                       ` Matt Mackall
2007-02-06 18:03                                         ` Bill Davidsen
2007-02-06  0:00                               ` Jeff Garzik
2007-02-06 13:52                               ` Jörn Engel
2007-02-06 15:16                               ` Mark Lord
2007-02-08  8:18                                 ` David Lang
2007-02-08  9:44                                 ` Jörn Engel
2007-02-06 15:41                           ` Bill Davidsen
2007-02-05 22:21                       ` Alan
2007-02-05 22:35                         ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-05 21:50                 ` Alan
2007-02-05 21:41                   ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-06  5:46                 ` Matt Mackall
2007-02-06 15:34                   ` Paul Mundt
2007-02-06 22:39                   ` Haavard Skinnemoen
2007-02-06 22:51                     ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-05 16:33           ` David Woodhouse
2007-02-05 16:46           ` Russell King
2007-02-05 16:52             ` Ingo Molnar
2007-02-05 17:04               ` Russell King
2007-02-05 16:32     ` Linus Torvalds
2007-02-05 16:50       ` Russell King
2007-02-05 16:52       ` David Woodhouse [this message]
2007-02-05 17:58 ` Super Kernel Sunday! Jan Engelhardt
2007-02-05 18:07   ` Kevin Fox
2007-02-06 19:02   ` Stephen Hemminger
2007-02-05 21:27 ` [2.6.20] Regression in dmfe driver Thomas Bächler
2007-02-06  9:38   ` Thierry Vignaud
2007-02-06 22:40     ` Thomas Bächler
2007-02-27 13:58 ` [PATA] Failed to set xfermode on LITE-ON LTR-48246S Philipp Matthias Hahn
2007-03-05  4:10   ` Tejun Heo
2007-03-05 10:38     ` Philipp Matthias Hahn
2007-03-05 15:46       ` Tejun Heo
2007-03-06  9:23         ` Philipp Matthias Hahn
2007-03-09 12:50           ` Tejun Heo

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