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From: Michal Hocko <firstname.lastname@example.org>
To: Minchan Kim <email@example.com>
Cc: Andrew Morton <firstname.lastname@example.org>,
Suren Baghdasaryan <email@example.com>,
Tim Murray <firstname.lastname@example.org>,
Daniel Colascione <email@example.com>,
Sandeep Patil <firstname.lastname@example.org>,
Sonny Rao <email@example.com>,
Brian Geffon <firstname.lastname@example.org>,
Johannes Weiner <email@example.com>,
Shakeel Butt <firstname.lastname@example.org>,
John Dias <email@example.com>,
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 2/5] mm: introduce external memory hinting API
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 09:03:26 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20200120080326.GI18451@dhcp22.suse.cz> (raw)
On Fri 17-01-20 09:25:42, Minchan Kim wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 12:52:25PM +0100, Michal Hocko wrote:
> > On Thu 16-01-20 15:59:50, Minchan Kim wrote:
> > > There is usecase that System Management Software(SMS) want to give
> > > a memory hint like MADV_[COLD|PAGEEOUT] to other processes and
> > > in the case of Android, it is the ActivityManagerService.
> > >
> > > It's similar in spirit to madvise(MADV_WONTNEED), but the information
> > > required to make the reclaim decision is not known to the app. Instead,
> > > it is known to the centralized userspace daemon(ActivityManagerService),
> > > and that daemon must be able to initiate reclaim on its own without
> > > any app involvement.
> > >
> > > To solve the issue, this patch introduces new syscall process_madvise(2).
> > > It uses pidfd of an external processs to give the hint.
> > >
> > > int process_madvise(int pidfd, void *addr, size_t length, int advise,
> > > unsigned long flag);
> > >
> > > Since it could affect other process's address range, only privileged
> > > process(CAP_SYS_PTRACE) or something else(e.g., being the same UID)
> > > gives it the right to ptrace the process could use it successfully.
> > > The flag argument is reserved for future use if we need to extend the
> > > API.
> > >
> > > I think supporting all hints madvise has/will supported/support to
> > > process_madvise is rather risky. Because we are not sure all hints make
> > > sense from external process and implementation for the hint may rely on
> > > the caller being in the current context so it could be error-prone.
> > > Thus, I just limited hints as MADV_[COLD|PAGEOUT] in this patch.
> > >
> > > If someone want to add other hints, we could hear hear the usecase and
> > > review it for each hint. It's more safe for maintainace rather than
> > > introducing a buggy syscall but hard to fix it later.
> > I have brought this up when we discussed this in the past but there is
> > no reflection on that here so let me bring that up again.
> > I believe that the interface has an inherent problem that it is racy.
> > The external entity needs to know the address space layout of the target
> > process to do anyhing useful on it. The address space is however under
> > the full control of the target process though and the external entity
> > has no means to find out that the layout has changed. So
> > time-to-check-time-to-act is an inherent problem.
> > This is a serious design flaw and it should be explained why it doesn't
> > matter or how to use the interface properly to prevent that problem.
> Sorry for the missing that part.
> It's not a particular problem of this API because other APIs already have
> done with that(e.g., move_pages, process_vm_writev).
I am sorry but this is not really an argument.
> Point is userspace has several ways for the control of target process
> like SIGSTOP, cgroup freezer or even no need to control since platform
> is already aware of that the process will never run until he grant it
> or it's resilient even though the race happens.
If you have that level of control then you can simply inject the code
via ptrace and you do not need a new syscall in the first place.
> In future, if we want to support more fine-grained consistency model
> like memory layout, we could provide some API to get cookie(e.g.,
> seq count which is updated whenever vma of the process changes). And then
> we could feed the cookie to process_madvise's last argument so that
> it can fail if founds it's not matched.
> For that API, Daniel already posted RFC - process_getinfo.
So why do not we start with a clean API since the beginning? I do agree
that a remote madvise is an interesting feature and it opens gates to
all sorts of userspace memory management which is not possible this
days. But the syscall has to have a reasonable semantic to allow that.
We cannot simply start with a half proken symantic first based on an
Android usecase and then hit the wall as soon as others with a different
user space model want to use it as well.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-01-20 8:03 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 39+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-01-16 23:59 [PATCH v2 0/5] introduce memory hinting API for external process Minchan Kim
2020-01-16 23:59 ` [PATCH v2 1/5] mm: factor out madvise's core functionality Minchan Kim
2020-01-17 10:02 ` Kirill Tkhai
2020-01-17 18:14 ` Minchan Kim
2020-01-16 23:59 ` [PATCH v2 2/5] mm: introduce external memory hinting API Minchan Kim
2020-01-17 11:52 ` Michal Hocko
2020-01-17 15:58 ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2020-01-17 17:32 ` Minchan Kim
2020-01-17 21:26 ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2020-01-18 9:40 ` SeongJae Park
2020-01-19 16:14 ` sspatil
2020-01-20 7:58 ` Michal Hocko
2020-01-20 10:39 ` Kirill Tkhai
2020-01-21 18:32 ` Minchan Kim
2020-01-22 8:28 ` Michal Hocko
2020-01-22 9:36 ` SeongJae Park
2020-01-22 10:02 ` Michal Hocko
2020-01-22 13:28 ` SeongJae Park
2020-01-23 1:41 ` Minchan Kim
2020-01-23 9:13 ` Michal Hocko
2020-01-21 18:11 ` Minchan Kim
2020-01-22 10:44 ` Oleksandr Natalenko
2020-01-23 1:43 ` Minchan Kim
2020-01-23 7:29 ` Oleksandr Natalenko
2020-01-17 17:25 ` Minchan Kim
2020-01-20 8:03 ` Michal Hocko [this message]
2020-01-20 10:24 ` Kirill Tkhai
2020-01-20 11:27 ` Michal Hocko
2020-01-20 12:39 ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2020-01-20 13:24 ` Michal Hocko
2020-01-20 14:21 ` Kirill A. Shutemov
2020-01-20 15:44 ` Michal Hocko
2020-01-21 18:43 ` Minchan Kim
2020-01-16 23:59 ` [PATCH v2 3/5] mm/madvise: employ mmget_still_valid for write lock Minchan Kim
2020-01-16 23:59 ` [PATCH v2 4/5] mm/madvise: allow KSM hints for remote API Minchan Kim
2020-01-17 10:13 ` Kirill Tkhai
2020-01-17 12:34 ` Oleksandr Natalenko
2020-01-21 17:45 ` Minchan Kim
2020-01-16 23:59 ` [PATCH v2 5/5] mm: support both pid and pidfd for process_madvise Minchan Kim
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