LKML Archive on lore.kernel.org
help / color / mirror / Atom feed
* Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
@ 2004-05-15 14:59 Justin Piszcz
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Justin Piszcz @ 2004-05-15 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: B.Zolnierkiewicz, linux-kernel; +Cc: apiszcz

ext2 on this box


>From: Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz <B.Zolnierkiewicz@elka.pw.edu.pl>
>To: "Justin Piszcz" <jpiszcz@hotmail.com>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
>CC: apiszcz@solarrain.com
>Subject: Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
>Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 15:06:20 +0200
>
>On Saturday 15 of May 2004 14:20, Justin Piszcz wrote:
> > The problem is the 2.6.6 kernel muxed my drive and when it fscked upon
> > reboot it deleted /etc/mtab and lilo.conf!
>
>What fs are you using?
>
> > Luckily I restored them from a backup and now run 2.6.5 and it is 
>working
> > fine.
> >
> > Linux 2.6.6 is a nightmare.
> >
> > I am looking into the benchmark problem with 2.6.6 now.
> >
> > --- In linux-kernel@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Piszcz" <jpiszcz@h...> 
>wrote:
> > >Now whenever I reboot it says input/output errors when it tries to 
>mount
> > >the drive? I will look into this further.
>
>This errors are HARMLESS and CAN'T corrupt your data.
>Please see http://bugme.osdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2672 for description+fix.
>
>Cheers,
>Bartlomiej
>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE 
download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
  2004-05-25 15:03           ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
@ 2004-05-26 10:21             ` Ian Stirling
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ian Stirling @ 2004-05-26 10:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
  Cc: Giuliano Pochini, Eric D. Mudama, Tom Vier, linux-kernel

Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz wrote:
> On Tuesday 25 of May 2004 11:05, Giuliano Pochini wrote:
> 
>>On Mon, 24 May 2004, Eric D. Mudama wrote:
>>
>>>Picture a nice fast drive doing 100 writes/second to the media... if
>>>you give it over 200 writes at a time, it'll occupy your 2 seconds.
>>>Newer drives with 8MB or larger buffers are certainly capable of
>>>caching a lot more than 200 writes...
>>
>>Quite unlikely. Usually disks have a big cache but it can hold a very
>>limited number of blocks. 8MB of cache is probably divided in 8 blocks
>>of 1MB each.
> 
> 
> No.

It is indeed likely that the worst case is around 16000 writes, which if
on seperate tracks may take over 30 seconds to complete if done individually.

However, it's likely that any drive designer with a clue would allocate a
couple of journal tracks, so that the write cache and two backup copies can
be stored for replay when the drive is powered on again.

Why do I suspect that some designers don't have clue, or haven't really thought
enough about this case.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
  2004-05-25  9:05         ` Giuliano Pochini
  2004-05-25 15:03           ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
@ 2004-05-25 17:02           ` Eric D. Mudama
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Eric D. Mudama @ 2004-05-25 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Giuliano Pochini; +Cc: Eric D. Mudama, Tom Vier, linux-kernel

On Tue, May 25 at 11:05, Giuliano Pochini wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 24 May 2004, Eric D. Mudama wrote:
>
>> Picture a nice fast drive doing 100 writes/second to the media... if
>> you give it over 200 writes at a time, it'll occupy your 2 seconds.
>> Newer drives with 8MB or larger buffers are certainly capable of
>> caching a lot more than 200 writes...
>
>Quite unlikely. Usually disks have a big cache but it can hold a very
>limited number of blocks. 8MB of cache is probably divided in 8 blocks
>of 1MB each.

Sorry, but that isn't true, unless some company is just plain stupid.

Everyone has different metrics for cache granularity based on their
cache architecture, but I can assure you that 8x 1MB segments is off
by 1-2 orders of magnitude, and has been for years.

In practice, depending on the workload, there may appear to only be 8
active segments as drives today can merge cache segments or other
similar things (architectually dependant), but the worst-case (best
case?) is significantly more.

--eric



-- 
Eric D. Mudama
edmudama@mail.bounceswoosh.org


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
  2004-05-25  9:05         ` Giuliano Pochini
@ 2004-05-25 15:03           ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
  2004-05-26 10:21             ` Ian Stirling
  2004-05-25 17:02           ` Eric D. Mudama
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz @ 2004-05-25 15:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Giuliano Pochini, Eric D. Mudama; +Cc: Tom Vier, linux-kernel

On Tuesday 25 of May 2004 11:05, Giuliano Pochini wrote:
> On Mon, 24 May 2004, Eric D. Mudama wrote:
> > Picture a nice fast drive doing 100 writes/second to the media... if
> > you give it over 200 writes at a time, it'll occupy your 2 seconds.
> > Newer drives with 8MB or larger buffers are certainly capable of
> > caching a lot more than 200 writes...
>
> Quite unlikely. Usually disks have a big cache but it can hold a very
> limited number of blocks. 8MB of cache is probably divided in 8 blocks
> of 1MB each.

No.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
  2004-05-24 17:16       ` Eric D. Mudama
@ 2004-05-25  9:05         ` Giuliano Pochini
  2004-05-25 15:03           ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
  2004-05-25 17:02           ` Eric D. Mudama
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Giuliano Pochini @ 2004-05-25  9:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eric D. Mudama; +Cc: Tom Vier, linux-kernel



On Mon, 24 May 2004, Eric D. Mudama wrote:

> Picture a nice fast drive doing 100 writes/second to the media... if
> you give it over 200 writes at a time, it'll occupy your 2 seconds.
> Newer drives with 8MB or larger buffers are certainly capable of
> caching a lot more than 200 writes...

Quite unlikely. Usually disks have a big cache but it can hold a very
limited number of blocks. 8MB of cache is probably divided in 8 blocks
of 1MB each.


--
Giuliano.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
  2004-05-24  2:41     ` Tom Vier
  2004-05-24  3:09       ` Daniel Pittman
@ 2004-05-24 17:16       ` Eric D. Mudama
  2004-05-25  9:05         ` Giuliano Pochini
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Eric D. Mudama @ 2004-05-24 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tom Vier; +Cc: linux-kernel

On Sun, May 23 at 22:41, Tom Vier wrote:
>On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 06:25:51PM -0400, Bill Davidsen wrote:
>> I would think that if the drive didn't properly flush cache on shutdown 
>> that it might cause corruption. Feel free to tell me no drive would 
>> bahave like that ;-)
>
>why not add a one or two second delay before? i doubt any drive holds its
>writeback that long.

That is an arbitrary delay that isn't guaranteed to work in all
workloads.

FLUSH CACHE is the way to do this, complain to vendors that don't
support flush cache and get them to fix their drives.  (Like how Bart
spoke to me and we both 1) worked out a solution for current drives
and 2) fixed the root case in all future firmwares)


Picture a nice fast drive doing 100 writes/second to the media... if
you give it over 200 writes at a time, it'll occupy your 2 seconds.
Newer drives with 8MB or larger buffers are certainly capable of
caching a lot more than 200 writes...

Drives are getting smarter so they can better work around these sorts
of cases, but FLUSH CACHE (EXT) is the only way that should be
guaranteed to work.

--eric


-- 
Eric D. Mudama
edmudama@mail.bounceswoosh.org


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
  2004-05-24  2:41     ` Tom Vier
@ 2004-05-24  3:09       ` Daniel Pittman
  2004-05-24 17:16       ` Eric D. Mudama
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Pittman @ 2004-05-24  3:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: linux-kernel

On 24 May 2004, Tom Vier wrote:
> On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 06:25:51PM -0400, Bill Davidsen wrote:
>> I would think that if the drive didn't properly flush cache on
>> shutdown that it might cause corruption. Feel free to tell me no
>> drive would bahave like that ;-)
>
> why not add a one or two second delay before? i doubt any drive holds
> its writeback that long.

This was the solution adopted by IBM, for their Thinkpad laptop line, in
a BIOS update last year.  My system now delays two seconds before
turning off, with the stated purpose "avoiding disk corruption"...

        Daniel

-- 
The English have the most rigid code of immorality in the world.
        -- Malcom Bradbury, _Eating People is Wrong_


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
  2004-05-17 22:25   ` Bill Davidsen
@ 2004-05-24  2:41     ` Tom Vier
  2004-05-24  3:09       ` Daniel Pittman
  2004-05-24 17:16       ` Eric D. Mudama
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Tom Vier @ 2004-05-24  2:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: linux-kernel

On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 06:25:51PM -0400, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> I would think that if the drive didn't properly flush cache on shutdown 
> that it might cause corruption. Feel free to tell me no drive would 
> bahave like that ;-)

why not add a one or two second delay before? i doubt any drive holds its
writeback that long.

-- 
Tom Vier <tmv@comcast.net>
DSA Key ID 0x15741ECE

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
  2004-05-15 13:06 ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
@ 2004-05-17 22:25   ` Bill Davidsen
  2004-05-24  2:41     ` Tom Vier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Bill Davidsen @ 2004-05-17 22:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: linux-kernel

Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz wrote:
> On Saturday 15 of May 2004 14:20, Justin Piszcz wrote:
> 
>>The problem is the 2.6.6 kernel muxed my drive and when it fscked upon
>>reboot it deleted /etc/mtab and lilo.conf!
> 
> 
> What fs are you using?
> 
> 
>>Luckily I restored them from a backup and now run 2.6.5 and it is working
>>fine.
>>
>>Linux 2.6.6 is a nightmare.
>>
>>I am looking into the benchmark problem with 2.6.6 now.
>>
>>--- In linux-kernel@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Piszcz" <jpiszcz@h...> wrote:
>>
>>>Now whenever I reboot it says input/output errors when it tries to mount
>>>the drive? I will look into this further.
> 
> 
> This errors are HARMLESS and CAN'T corrupt your data.
> Please see http://bugme.osdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2672 for description+fix.

I would think that if the drive didn't properly flush cache on shutdown 
that it might cause corruption. Feel free to tell me no drive would 
bahave like that ;-)

-- 
    -bill davidsen (davidsen@tmr.com)
"The secret to procrastination is to put things off until the
  last possible moment - but no longer"  -me

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
  2004-05-15 12:20 Justin Piszcz
@ 2004-05-15 13:06 ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
  2004-05-17 22:25   ` Bill Davidsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz @ 2004-05-15 13:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Justin Piszcz, linux-kernel; +Cc: apiszcz

On Saturday 15 of May 2004 14:20, Justin Piszcz wrote:
> The problem is the 2.6.6 kernel muxed my drive and when it fscked upon
> reboot it deleted /etc/mtab and lilo.conf!

What fs are you using?

> Luckily I restored them from a backup and now run 2.6.5 and it is working
> fine.
>
> Linux 2.6.6 is a nightmare.
>
> I am looking into the benchmark problem with 2.6.6 now.
>
> --- In linux-kernel@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Piszcz" <jpiszcz@h...> wrote:
> >Now whenever I reboot it says input/output errors when it tries to mount
> >the drive? I will look into this further.

This errors are HARMLESS and CAN'T corrupt your data.
Please see http://bugme.osdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2672 for description+fix.

Cheers,
Bartlomiej


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* RE: Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
@ 2004-05-15 12:20 Justin Piszcz
  2004-05-15 13:06 ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Justin Piszcz @ 2004-05-15 12:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: linux-kernel; +Cc: apiszcz

The problem is the 2.6.6 kernel muxed my drive and when it fscked upon 
reboot it deleted /etc/mtab and lilo.conf!

Luckily I restored them from a backup and now run 2.6.5 and it is working 
fine.

Linux 2.6.6 is a nightmare.

I am looking into the benchmark problem with 2.6.6 now.


--- In linux-kernel@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Piszcz" <jpiszcz@h...> wrote:
>Now whenever I reboot it says input/output errors when it tries to mount 
>the drive? I will look into this further.
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! 
>http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/
>
>-
>To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
>the body of a message to majordomo@v...
>More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org

_________________________________________________________________
Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://youroffers.msn.com


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems.
@ 2004-05-15 12:02 Justin Piszcz
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Justin Piszcz @ 2004-05-15 12:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: linux-kernel

Now whenever I reboot it says input/output errors when it tries to mount the 
drive? I will look into this further.

_________________________________________________________________
Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! 
http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2004-05-26 10:21 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2004-05-15 14:59 Linux Kernel 2.6.6 IDE shutdown problems Justin Piszcz
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2004-05-15 12:20 Justin Piszcz
2004-05-15 13:06 ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
2004-05-17 22:25   ` Bill Davidsen
2004-05-24  2:41     ` Tom Vier
2004-05-24  3:09       ` Daniel Pittman
2004-05-24 17:16       ` Eric D. Mudama
2004-05-25  9:05         ` Giuliano Pochini
2004-05-25 15:03           ` Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz
2004-05-26 10:21             ` Ian Stirling
2004-05-25 17:02           ` Eric D. Mudama
2004-05-15 12:02 Justin Piszcz

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).