LKML Archive on
help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Yang Shi <>
To: "Huang, Ying" <>
Cc: Linux Kernel Mailing List <>,
	Andrew Morton <>,
	Michal Hocko <>, Rik van Riel <>,
	Mel Gorman <>,
	Peter Zijlstra <>,
	Dave Hansen <>,
	Zi Yan <>, Wei Xu <>,
	osalvador <>, Shakeel Butt <>,
	Linux MM <>
Subject: Re: [PATCH -V8 1/6] NUMA balancing: optimize page placement for memory tiering system
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:47:23 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <>

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 6:45 PM Huang, Ying <> wrote:
> Yang Shi <> writes:
> > On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 6:37 PM Huang Ying <> wrote:
> >>
> >> With the advent of various new memory types, some machines will have
> >> multiple types of memory, e.g. DRAM and PMEM (persistent memory).  The
> >> memory subsystem of these machines can be called memory tiering
> >> system, because the performance of the different types of memory are
> >> usually different.
> >>
> >> In such system, because of the memory accessing pattern changing etc,
> >> some pages in the slow memory may become hot globally.  So in this
> >> patch, the NUMA balancing mechanism is enhanced to optimize the page
> >> placement among the different memory types according to hot/cold
> >> dynamically.
> >>
> >> In a typical memory tiering system, there are CPUs, fast memory and
> >> slow memory in each physical NUMA node.  The CPUs and the fast memory
> >> will be put in one logical node (called fast memory node), while the
> >> slow memory will be put in another (faked) logical node (called slow
> >> memory node).  That is, the fast memory is regarded as local while the
> >> slow memory is regarded as remote.  So it's possible for the recently
> >> accessed pages in the slow memory node to be promoted to the fast
> >> memory node via the existing NUMA balancing mechanism.
> >>
> >> The original NUMA balancing mechanism will stop to migrate pages if the free
> >> memory of the target node will become below the high watermark.  This
> >> is a reasonable policy if there's only one memory type.  But this
> >> makes the original NUMA balancing mechanism almost not work to optimize page
> >> placement among different memory types.  Details are as follows.
> >>
> >> It's the common cases that the working-set size of the workload is
> >> larger than the size of the fast memory nodes.  Otherwise, it's
> >> unnecessary to use the slow memory at all.  So in the common cases,
> >> there are almost always no enough free pages in the fast memory nodes,
> >> so that the globally hot pages in the slow memory node cannot be
> >> promoted to the fast memory node.  To solve the issue, we have 2
> >> choices as follows,
> >>
> >> a. Ignore the free pages watermark checking when promoting hot pages
> >>    from the slow memory node to the fast memory node.  This will
> >>    create some memory pressure in the fast memory node, thus trigger
> >>    the memory reclaiming.  So that, the cold pages in the fast memory
> >>    node will be demoted to the slow memory node.
> >>
> >> b. Make kswapd of the fast memory node to reclaim pages until the free
> >>    pages are a little more (about 10MB) than the high watermark.  Then,
> >>    if the free pages of the fast memory node reaches high watermark, and
> >>    some hot pages need to be promoted, kswapd of the fast memory node
> >>    will be waken up to demote some cold pages in the fast memory node to
> >>    the slow memory node.  This will free some extra space in the fast
> >>    memory node, so the hot pages in the slow memory node can be
> >>    promoted to the fast memory node.
> >>
> >> The choice "a" will create the memory pressure in the fast memory
> >> node.  If the memory pressure of the workload is high, the memory
> >> pressure may become so high that the memory allocation latency of the
> >> workload is influenced, e.g. the direct reclaiming may be triggered.
> >>
> >> The choice "b" works much better at this aspect.  If the memory
> >> pressure of the workload is high, the hot pages promotion will stop
> >> earlier because its allocation watermark is higher than that of the
> >> normal memory allocation.  So in this patch, choice "b" is
> >> implemented.
> >>
> >> In addition to the original page placement optimization among sockets,
> >> the NUMA balancing mechanism is extended to be used to optimize page
> >> placement according to hot/cold among different memory types.  So the
> >> sysctl user space interface (numa_balancing) is extended in a backward
> >> compatible way as follow, so that the users can enable/disable these
> >> functionality individually.
> >>
> >> The sysctl is converted from a Boolean value to a bits field.  The
> >> definition of the flags is,
> >>
> >
> > Thanks for coming up with the patches. TBH the first question off the
> > top of my head is all the complexity is really worthy for real life
> > workload at the moment? And the interfaces (sysctl knob files exported
> > to users) look complicated for the users. I don't know if the users
> > know how to set an optimal value for their workloads.
> >
> > I don't disagree the NUMA balancing needs optimization and improvement
> > for tiering memory, the question we need answer is how far we should
> > go for now and what the interfaces should look like. Does it make
> > sense to you?
> >
> > IMHO I'd prefer the most simple and straightforward approach at the
> > moment. For example, we could just skip high water mark check for PMEM
> > promotion.
> Hi, Yang,
> Thanks for comments.
> I understand your concerns about complexity.  I have tried to organize
> the patchset so that the initial patch is as simple as possible and the
> complexity is introduced step by step.  But it seems that your simplest
> version is even simpler than my one :-)
> In this patch ([1/6]), I introduced 2 stuff.
> Firstly, a sysctl knob is provided to disable the NUMA balancing based
> promotion.  Per my understanding, you suggest to remove this.  If so,
> optimizing cross-socket access and promoting hot PMEM pages to DRAM must
> be enabled/disabled together.  If a user wants to enable promoting the
> hot PMEM pages to DRAM but disable optimizing cross-socket access
> because they have already bound the CPU of the workload so that there's no
> much cross-socket access, how can they do?

I should make myself clearer. Here I mean the whole series, not this
specific patch. I'm concerned that the interfaces (hint fault latency
and ratelimit) are hard to understand and configure for users and
whether we go too far at the moment or not. I'm dealing with the end
users, I'd admit I'm not even sure how to configure the knobs to
achieve optimal performance for different real life workloads.

For this specific patch I'm ok to a new promotion mode. There might be
usecase that users just want to do promotion between tiered memory but
not care about NUMA locality.

> Secondly, we add a promote watermark to the DRAM node so that we can
> demote/promote pages between the high and promote watermark.  Per my
> understanding, you suggest just to ignore the high watermark checking
> for promoting.  The problem is that this may make the free pages of the
> DRAM node too few.  If many pages are promoted in short time, the free
> pages will be kept near the min watermark for a while, so that the page
> allocation from the application will trigger direct reclaiming.  We have
> observed page allocation failure in a test before with a similar policy.

The question is, applicable to the hint fault latency and ratelimit
too, we already have some NUMA balancing knobs to control scan period
and scan size and watermark knobs to tune how aggressively kswapd
works, can they do the same jobs instead of introducing any new knobs?

> Best Regards,
> Huang, Ying

  reply	other threads:[~2021-09-15  2:47 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 17+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-09-14  1:36 [PATCH -V8 0/6] NUMA balancing: optimize memory " Huang Ying
2021-09-14  1:36 ` [PATCH -V8 1/6] NUMA balancing: optimize page " Huang Ying
2021-09-14 22:40   ` Yang Shi
2021-09-15  1:44     ` Huang, Ying
2021-09-15  2:47       ` Yang Shi [this message]
2021-09-15  3:58         ` Huang, Ying
2021-09-15 21:32           ` Yang Shi
2021-09-16  1:44             ` Huang, Ying
2021-09-17  0:47               ` Yang Shi
2021-09-17  1:24                 ` Huang, Ying
2021-09-14  1:36 ` [PATCH -V8 2/6] memory tiering: add page promotion counter Huang Ying
2021-09-14 22:41   ` Yang Shi
2021-09-15  1:53     ` Huang, Ying
2021-09-14  1:36 ` [PATCH -V8 3/6] memory tiering: skip to scan fast memory Huang Ying
2021-09-14  1:36 ` [PATCH -V8 4/6] memory tiering: hot page selection with hint page fault latency Huang Ying
2021-09-14  1:37 ` [PATCH -V8 5/6] memory tiering: rate limit NUMA migration throughput Huang Ying
2021-09-14  1:37 ` [PATCH -V8 6/6] memory tiering: adjust hot threshold automatically Huang Ying

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
    --subject='Re: [PATCH -V8 1/6] NUMA balancing: optimize page placement for memory tiering system' \

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).