LKML Archive on lore.kernel.org
help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>
To: Florian Weimer <fweimer@redhat.com>
Cc: Andrew Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>,
	Yu-cheng Yu <yu-cheng.yu@intel.com>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, Linux-MM <linux-mm@kvack.org>,
	linux-arch <linux-arch@vger.kernel.org>, X86 ML <x86@kernel.org>,
	"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@redhat.com>, "H. J. Lu" <hjl.tools@gmail.com>,
	"Shanbhogue, Vedvyas" <vedvyas.shanbhogue@intel.com>,
	"Ravi V. Shankar" <ravi.v.shankar@intel.com>,
	Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@linux.intel.com>,
	Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>, Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>,
	Arnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de>,
	mike.kravetz@oracle.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH 04/10] x86/cet: Handle thread shadow stack
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 13:53:41 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALCETrWPDXpbVcuFK_1M5DtaCOW_LSf-XHFAD0vpc735oFWLPg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <3c1bdf85-0c52-39ed-a799-e26ac0e52391@redhat.com>

On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 12:47 PM Florian Weimer <fweimer@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On 06/07/2018 08:21 PM, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 7:41 AM Yu-cheng Yu <yu-cheng.yu@intel.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> When fork() specifies CLONE_VM but not CLONE_VFORK, the child
> >> needs a separate program stack and a separate shadow stack.
> >> This patch handles allocation and freeing of the thread shadow
> >> stack.
> >
> > Aha -- you're trying to make this automatic.  I'm not convinced this
> > is a good idea.  The Linux kernel has a long and storied history of
> > enabling new hardware features in ways that are almost entirely
> > useless for userspace.
> >
> > Florian, do you have any thoughts on how the user/kernel interaction
> > for the shadow stack should work?
>
> I have not looked at this in detail, have not played with the emulator,
> and have not been privy to any discussions before these patches have
> been posted, however …
>
> I believe that we want as little code in userspace for shadow stack
> management as possible.  One concern I have is that even with the code
> we arguably need for various kinds of stack unwinding, we might have
> unwittingly built a generic trampoline that leads to full CET bypass.

I was imagining an API like "allocate a shadow stack for the current
thread, fail if the current thread already has one, and turn on the
shadow stack".  glibc would call clone and then call this ABI pretty
much immediately (i.e. before making any calls from which it expects
to return).

We definitely want strong enough user control that tools like CRIU can
continue to work.  I haven't looked at the SDM recently enough to
remember for sure, but I'm reasonably confident that user code can
learn the address of its own shadow stack.  If nothing else, CRIU
needs to be able to restore from a context where there's a signal on
the stack and the signal frame contains a shadow stack pointer.


>
> I also expect that we'd only have donor mappings in userspace anyway,
> and that the memory is not actually accessible from userspace if it is
> used for a shadow stack.
>
> > My intuition would be that all
> > shadow stack management should be entirely controlled by userspace --
> > newly cloned threads (with CLONE_VM) should have no shadow stack
> > initially, and newly started processes should have no shadow stack
> > until they ask for one.
>
> If the new thread doesn't have a shadow stack, we need to disable
> signals around clone, and we are very likely forced to rewrite the early
> thread setup in assembler, to avoid spurious calls (including calls to
> thunks to get EIP on i386).  I wouldn't want to do this If we can avoid
> it.  Just using C and hoping to get away with it doesn't sound greater,
> either.  And obviously there is the matter that the initial thread setup
> code ends up being that universal trampoline.
>

Only if the trampoline works if the shadow stack is already enabled.

I could very easily be convinced that automatic shadow stack setup is
a good idea, but I still think we need manual control for CRIU and
such.

  reply	other threads:[~2018-06-07 20:54 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 98+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-06-07 14:37 [PATCH 00/10] Control Flow Enforcement - Part (3) Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:37 ` [PATCH 01/10] x86/cet: User-mode shadow stack support Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 16:37   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 17:46     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 17:55       ` Dave Hansen
2018-06-07 18:23       ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-12 11:56   ` Balbir Singh
2018-06-12 15:03     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:37 ` [PATCH 02/10] x86/cet: Introduce WRUSS instruction Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 16:40   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 16:51     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:41     ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-06-07 20:31       ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-11  8:17     ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-06-11 15:02       ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-14  1:30   ` Balbir Singh
2018-06-14 14:43     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 03/10] x86/cet: Signal handling for shadow stack Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:30   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 18:58     ` Florian Weimer
2018-06-07 19:51       ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 20:07     ` Cyrill Gorcunov
2018-06-07 20:57       ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 12:07         ` Cyrill Gorcunov
2018-06-07 20:12     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 20:17       ` Dave Hansen
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 04/10] x86/cet: Handle thread " Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:21   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 19:47     ` Florian Weimer
2018-06-07 20:53       ` Andy Lutomirski [this message]
2018-06-08 14:53         ` Florian Weimer
2018-06-08 15:01           ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 15:50             ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 05/10] x86/cet: ELF header parsing of Control Flow Enforcement Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:38   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 20:40     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 06/10] x86/cet: Add arch_prctl functions for shadow stack Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:48   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 20:30     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 21:01       ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 22:02         ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-07 23:01           ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08  4:09             ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-08  4:38               ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 12:24                 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-08 14:57                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 15:52                     ` Cyrill Gorcunov
2018-06-08  4:22           ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-08  4:35             ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 12:17               ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-12 10:03           ` Thomas Gleixner
2018-06-12 11:43             ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-12 16:01               ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-12 16:05                 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-12 16:34                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-12 16:51                     ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-12 18:59                       ` Thomas Gleixner
2018-06-12 19:34                         ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-18 22:03                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-19  0:52                             ` Kees Cook
2018-06-19  6:40                               ` Florian Weimer
2018-06-19 14:50                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-19 16:44                                 ` Kees Cook
2018-06-19 16:59                                   ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-19 17:07                                     ` Kees Cook
2018-06-19 17:20                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-19 20:12                                         ` Kees Cook
2018-06-19 20:47                                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-19 22:38                                             ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-20  0:50                                               ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-21 23:07                                                 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 07/10] mm: Prevent mprotect from changing " Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 08/10] mm: Prevent mremap of " Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:48   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 20:18     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 09/10] mm: Prevent madvise from changing " Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 20:54   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 21:09   ` Nadav Amit
2018-06-07 21:18     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 10/10] mm: Prevent munmap and remap_file_pages of " Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:50   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 20:15     ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-12 10:56 ` [PATCH 00/10] Control Flow Enforcement - Part (3) Balbir Singh
2018-06-12 15:03   ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-12 16:00     ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-12 16:21       ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-12 16:31         ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-12 17:24           ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-12 20:15             ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-14  1:07     ` Balbir Singh
2018-06-14 14:56       ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-17  3:16         ` Balbir Singh
2018-06-18 21:44           ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-19  8:52             ` Balbir Singh
2018-06-26  2:46 ` Jann Horn
2018-06-26 14:56   ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-26  5:26 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-26 14:56   ` Yu-cheng Yu

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=CALCETrWPDXpbVcuFK_1M5DtaCOW_LSf-XHFAD0vpc735oFWLPg@mail.gmail.com \
    --to=luto@kernel.org \
    --cc=arnd@arndb.de \
    --cc=corbet@lwn.net \
    --cc=dave.hansen@linux.intel.com \
    --cc=fweimer@redhat.com \
    --cc=hjl.tools@gmail.com \
    --cc=hpa@zytor.com \
    --cc=linux-arch@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-doc@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-mm@kvack.org \
    --cc=mike.kravetz@oracle.com \
    --cc=mingo@redhat.com \
    --cc=oleg@redhat.com \
    --cc=ravi.v.shankar@intel.com \
    --cc=tglx@linutronix.de \
    --cc=vedvyas.shanbhogue@intel.com \
    --cc=x86@kernel.org \
    --cc=yu-cheng.yu@intel.com \
    --subject='Re: [PATCH 04/10] x86/cet: Handle thread shadow stack' \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).