bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

[Uwe Bugla]

Hi folks,
the floppy mount error I mentioned is gone now in 2.6.21-rc2, and my kernel is smaller. Good decision to rip out Stephane's stuff, Linus!
As I did not get a reply from Andrew I hope that the buggy stuff residing in 2.6.20-mm1 ( freezing my apache services
- I already mentioned the problem some days ago - mm2 I did not try yet ) will never be pushed into vanilla mainline.
I owe some old CDROM and CDRW devices manufactured by TEAC (bought somewhen in 1999): CDR 540 and CDRW 54.
Those old CD devices sometimes get confused with drive seek errors and status errors shown in dmesg.
The newer DVD devices (LG reading device and Yamakawa burning device) do not show those errors at all.
As I have finished an enourmous project 6 weeks ago (transforming some 500 Audio CDs to MP3 format
with kaudiocreator and lame 3.97 (320 kbit quality - preset insane) and then burning the material on DVDs)
those old devices were an incredible help in some cases where the newer DVD devices refused to read some audio
CDs without errors. That's why I do not want to kick them off at all. Never had those troubles with kernel 2.6.19 and former ones.
Dmesg 1 says on my AMD machine with a CDR540 as /dev/hdd during boot process:
hdd: media error (bad sector): status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hdd: media error (bad sector): error=0x34 { AbortedCommand LastFailedSense=0x03 }
ide: failed opcode was: unknown
ATAPI device hdd:
  Error: Medium error -- (Sense key=0x03)
  (reserved error code) -- (asc=0x02, ascq=0x00)
  The failed "Read 10" packet command was:
  "28 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 "
end_request: I/O error, dev hdd, sector 64
Buffer I/O error on device hdd, logical block 8
hdd: media error (bad sector): status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
hdd: media error (bad sector): error=0x34 { AbortedCommand LastFailedSense=0x03 }
ide: failed opcode was: unknown
ATAPI device hdd:
  Error: Medium error -- (Sense key=0x03)
  (reserved error code) -- (asc=0x02, ascq=0x00)
  The failed "Read 10" packet command was:
  "28 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 "
end_request: I/O error, dev hdd, sector 64
Buffer I/O error on device hdd, logical block 8

But even more crucial is this one:
Dmesg 2 says on the Intel machine with a TEAC CDRW54 as /dev/hdd:
hdd: status error: status=0x7f { DriveReady DeviceFault SeekComplete DataRequest CorrectedError Index Error }
hdd: status error: error=0x7f { IllegalLengthIndication EndOfMedia AbortedCommand MediaChangeRequested LastFailedSense=0x07 }
ide: failed opcode was: unknown
For about 1 second the whole system hangs while /dev/hdd is executing some kind of reinitialization, just like as if you unconnect
the data and the 12 V / 6V cable and reconnect them again while the machine is up and running.
For a DVB-S record f. ex. the breakdown of the recording can be one consequence.
Question: Can someone reading this please confirm these errors? Please take old CD devices to find out, not newer ones or even DVD devices!
I am using the standard IDE driver with the following chipsets: Intel ICH4 and SIS 5513. And please take time, as these crucial errors do not happen
immediately, but about 4 times in about 8 - 10 hours while the machine is up and running.

Yours sincerely and thanks for all your efforts

Uwe
P. S.: I do not think this is a hardware error as I did not have those problems with kernels <= 2.6.19.

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Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

[Andrew Morton]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 16:55:36 +0100 "Uwe Bugla" <uwe.bugla@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi folks,
> the floppy mount error I mentioned is gone now in 2.6.21-rc2, and my kernel is smaller. Good decision to rip out Stephane's stuff, Linus!
> As I did not get a reply from Andrew I hope that the buggy stuff residing in 2.6.20-mm1 ( freezing my apache services
> - I already mentioned the problem some days ago - mm2 I did not try yet ) will never be pushed into vanilla mainline.

Please do test rc2-mm1.

There are around seventy different developers' trees in -mm.  Quite a few of them
could have caused this.  It's indeed possible that the bug will get into 2.6.22
if few people are hitting it.

> I owe some old CDROM and CDRW devices manufactured by TEAC (bought somewhen in 1999): CDR 540 and CDRW 54.
> Those old CD devices sometimes get confused with drive seek errors and status errors shown in dmesg.
> The newer DVD devices (LG reading device and Yamakawa burning device) do not show those errors at all.
> As I have finished an enourmous project 6 weeks ago (transforming some 500 Audio CDs to MP3 format
> with kaudiocreator and lame 3.97 (320 kbit quality - preset insane) and then burning the material on DVDs)
> those old devices were an incredible help in some cases where the newer DVD devices refused to read some audio
> CDs without errors. That's why I do not want to kick them off at all. Never had those troubles with kernel 2.6.19 and former ones.
> Dmesg 1 says on my AMD machine with a CDR540 as /dev/hdd during boot process:
> hdd: media error (bad sector): status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
> hdd: media error (bad sector): error=0x34 { AbortedCommand LastFailedSense=0x03 }
> ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> ATAPI device hdd:
>   Error: Medium error -- (Sense key=0x03)
>   (reserved error code) -- (asc=0x02, ascq=0x00)
>   The failed "Read 10" packet command was:
>   "28 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 "
> end_request: I/O error, dev hdd, sector 64
> Buffer I/O error on device hdd, logical block 8
> hdd: media error (bad sector): status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
> hdd: media error (bad sector): error=0x34 { AbortedCommand LastFailedSense=0x03 }
> ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> ATAPI device hdd:
>   Error: Medium error -- (Sense key=0x03)
>   (reserved error code) -- (asc=0x02, ascq=0x00)
>   The failed "Read 10" packet command was:
>   "28 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 "
> end_request: I/O error, dev hdd, sector 64
> Buffer I/O error on device hdd, logical block 8
> 
> But even more crucial is this one:
> Dmesg 2 says on the Intel machine with a TEAC CDRW54 as /dev/hdd:
> hdd: status error: status=0x7f { DriveReady DeviceFault SeekComplete DataRequest CorrectedError Index Error }
> hdd: status error: error=0x7f { IllegalLengthIndication EndOfMedia AbortedCommand MediaChangeRequested LastFailedSense=0x07 }
> ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> For about 1 second the whole system hangs while /dev/hdd is executing some kind of reinitialization, just like as if you unconnect
> the data and the 12 V / 6V cable and reconnect them again while the machine is up and running.
> For a DVB-S record f. ex. the breakdown of the recording can be one consequence.
> Question: Can someone reading this please confirm these errors? Please take old CD devices to find out, not newer ones or even DVD devices!
> I am using the standard IDE driver with the following chipsets: Intel ICH4 and SIS 5513. And please take time, as these crucial errors do not happen
> immediately, but about 4 times in about 8 - 10 hours while the machine is up and running.
> 
> Yours sincerely and thanks for all your efforts
> 
> Uwe
> P. S.: I do not think this is a hardware error as I did not have those problems with kernels <= 2.6.19.
> 

Cc's added.

Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

[Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz]

Hi Uwe,

On Saturday 03 March 2007, Uwe Bugla wrote:
> Hi folks,
> the floppy mount error I mentioned is gone now in 2.6.21-rc2, and my kernel is smaller. Good decision to rip out Stephane's stuff, Linus!
> As I did not get a reply from Andrew I hope that the buggy stuff residing in 2.6.20-mm1 ( freezing my apache services
> - I already mentioned the problem some days ago - mm2 I did not try yet ) will never be pushed into vanilla mainline.
> I owe some old CDROM and CDRW devices manufactured by TEAC (bought somewhen in 1999): CDR 540 and CDRW 54.
> Those old CD devices sometimes get confused with drive seek errors and status errors shown in dmesg.
> The newer DVD devices (LG reading device and Yamakawa burning device) do not show those errors at all.
> As I have finished an enourmous project 6 weeks ago (transforming some 500 Audio CDs to MP3 format
> with kaudiocreator and lame 3.97 (320 kbit quality - preset insane) and then burning the material on DVDs)
> those old devices were an incredible help in some cases where the newer DVD devices refused to read some audio
> CDs without errors. That's why I do not want to kick them off at all. Never had those troubles with kernel 2.6.19 and former ones.

> Dmesg 1 says on my AMD machine with a CDR540 as /dev/hdd during boot process:
> hdd: media error (bad sector): status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
> hdd: media error (bad sector): error=0x34 { AbortedCommand LastFailedSense=0x03 }
> ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> ATAPI device hdd:
>   Error: Medium error -- (Sense key=0x03)
>   (reserved error code) -- (asc=0x02, ascq=0x00)
>   The failed "Read 10" packet command was:
>   "28 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 "
> end_request: I/O error, dev hdd, sector 64

Hmm. why does it try to read sector 64 during boot?

Could you make sure that there are not configuration files/options incorrectly
referring to /dev/hdd (please grep you /etc and /boot for for "/dev/hdd")?

[ ... ]

> But even more crucial is this one:
> Dmesg 2 says on the Intel machine with a TEAC CDRW54 as /dev/hdd:
> hdd: status error: status=0x7f { DriveReady DeviceFault SeekComplete DataRequest CorrectedError Index Error }
> hdd: status error: error=0x7f { IllegalLengthIndication EndOfMedia AbortedCommand MediaChangeRequested LastFailedSense=0x07 }
> ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> For about 1 second the whole system hangs while /dev/hdd is executing some kind of reinitialization, just like as if you unconnect
> the data and the 12 V / 6V cable and reconnect them again while the machine is up and running.

It really looks like a hardware related problem (power supply/power cable).

> For a DVB-S record f. ex. the breakdown of the recording can be one consequence.
> Question: Can someone reading this please confirm these errors? Please take old CD devices to find out, not newer ones or even DVD devices!
> I am using the standard IDE driver with the following chipsets: Intel ICH4 and SIS 5513. And please take time, as these crucial errors do not happen
> immediately, but about 4 times in about 8 - 10 hours while the machine is up and running.

The "randomness" of the issue is another indicator that it could be power
related.  Could it be that the issue happens when the system is rather busy?

> Yours sincerely and thanks for all your efforts
> 
> Uwe
> P. S.: I do not think this is a hardware error as I did not have those problems with kernels <= 2.6.19.

I went through 2.6.19 -> 2.6.20 IDE changes and it is highly unlikely that
the breakage is caused by IDE driver.  Anyway to be sure I've prepared a
patch for you:

	http://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/bart/ide-2.6.20.patch

it contains all 2.6.19 -> 2.6.20 IDE changes - we need to know whether the
2.6.20 kernel with the above patch reversed (applied with -R) works.

[ If it still won't work with the patch applied that must be some other thing
  and we are left with trying git bisect or a lot of unreliable guesswork. ]

Please also post (preferably by filling bug at http://bugzilla.kernel.org)
outputs of dmesg and lspci -vvvxxx commands from 2.6.19 and 2.6.20 so we can
check if anything changed in the way that ATA devices/hosts are programmed
on your systems between 2.6.19 and 2.6.20.

I'm also cc:ing our new ide-cd Maintainer (Hi Alan) who may shed some more
light on the problems.

PS please always cc: linux-ide mailing list on ATA problems, problems won't
get fixed if information about them doesn't reach the right people...

Thanks,
Bart

Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

[Bill Davidsen]

Uwe Bugla wrote:
> Hi folks,
> the floppy mount error I mentioned is gone now in 2.6.21-rc2, and my kernel is smaller. Good decision to rip out Stephane's stuff, Linus!
> As I did not get a reply from Andrew I hope that the buggy stuff residing in 2.6.20-mm1 ( freezing my apache services
> - I already mentioned the problem some days ago - mm2 I did not try yet ) will never be pushed into vanilla mainline.
> I owe some old CDROM and CDRW devices manufactured by TEAC (bought somewhen in 1999): CDR 540 and CDRW 54.
> Those old CD devices sometimes get confused with drive seek errors and status errors shown in dmesg.
> The newer DVD devices (LG reading device and Yamakawa burning device) do not show those errors at all.
> As I have finished an enourmous project 6 weeks ago (transforming some 500 Audio CDs to MP3 format
> with kaudiocreator and lame 3.97 (320 kbit quality - preset insane) and then burning the material on DVDs)
> those old devices were an incredible help in some cases where the newer DVD devices refused to read some audio
> CDs without errors. That's why I do not want to kick them off at all. Never had those troubles with kernel 2.6.19 and former ones.

Other than wanting to stay current, is there a reason why you need to go 
to a newer kernel to do this process? Would it be an option just to run 
on a kernel which works for the moment?

Assuming that you don't want to use these drives unless you can't read a 
CD any other way, would it be practical to (a) move these drives to 
another machine and run and old kernel, (b) try a newer CD (not DVD) 
reader, or (c) install one or both of these antiques in a USB external 
enclosure which would allow you to reinsert the drive rather than reboot?

It may take a while for this problem to be identified, I doubt there are 
many around for developers to test. If I have one in the "old junk" 
closet anyone is welcome to it, but I have donated a lot of built from 
parts machines to various people and causes, so anything that old is 
unlikely to be found.

> Dmesg 1 says on my AMD machine with a CDR540 as /dev/hdd during boot process:
> hdd: media error (bad sector): status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
> hdd: media error (bad sector): error=0x34 { AbortedCommand LastFailedSense=0x03 }
> ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> ATAPI device hdd:
>   Error: Medium error -- (Sense key=0x03)
>   (reserved error code) -- (asc=0x02, ascq=0x00)
>   The failed "Read 10" packet command was:
>   "28 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 "
> end_request: I/O error, dev hdd, sector 64
> Buffer I/O error on device hdd, logical block 8
> hdd: media error (bad sector): status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
> hdd: media error (bad sector): error=0x34 { AbortedCommand LastFailedSense=0x03 }
> ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> ATAPI device hdd:
>   Error: Medium error -- (Sense key=0x03)
>   (reserved error code) -- (asc=0x02, ascq=0x00)
>   The failed "Read 10" packet command was:
>   "28 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 "
> end_request: I/O error, dev hdd, sector 64
> Buffer I/O error on device hdd, logical block 8
> 
> But even more crucial is this one:
> Dmesg 2 says on the Intel machine with a TEAC CDRW54 as /dev/hdd:
> hdd: status error: status=0x7f { DriveReady DeviceFault SeekComplete DataRequest CorrectedError Index Error }
> hdd: status error: error=0x7f { IllegalLengthIndication EndOfMedia AbortedCommand MediaChangeRequested LastFailedSense=0x07 }
> ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> For about 1 second the whole system hangs while /dev/hdd is executing some kind of reinitialization, just like as if you unconnect
> the data and the 12 V / 6V cable and reconnect them again while the machine is up and running.
> For a DVB-S record f. ex. the breakdown of the recording can be one consequence.
> Question: Can someone reading this please confirm these errors? Please take old CD devices to find out, not newer ones or even DVD devices!
> I am using the standard IDE driver with the following chipsets: Intel ICH4 and SIS 5513. And please take time, as these crucial errors do not happen
> immediately, but about 4 times in about 8 - 10 hours while the machine is up and running.
> 
> Yours sincerely and thanks for all your efforts
> 
> Uwe
> P. S.: I do not think this is a hardware error as I did not have those problems with kernels <= 2.6.19.
> 


-- 
Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot

Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

[Linus Torvalds]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Uwe Bugla wrote:
>
> Hi folks,

Hi Uwe.

The thing is, nobody really reads your emails. Why?

 - you're too abrasive.

   Hey, I'm not the most polite person either, but when you complain about 
   other maintainers doing badly, you'd better try to show that you can do 
   better.

 - they are so horribly formatted that it's impossible to read them.

   Quote appropriately, and use correct whitespace. That means wrapping 
   long lines, proper paragraphs, and it means whitespace in between 
   paragraphs and the things you quote.

I really would suggest you try to fix these issues, as I strongly suspect 
that people skip over your messages as it is now.

		Linus

Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

[Uwe Bugla]

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:25:29 +0100
Von: Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz <bzolnier@gmail.com>
An: "Uwe Bugla" <uwe.bugla@gmx.de>
CC: torvalds@linux-foundation.org, akpm@linux-foundation.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Alan <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Betreff: Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

> 
> Hi Uwe,
> 
> On Saturday 03 March 2007, Uwe Bugla wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> > the floppy mount error I mentioned is gone now in 2.6.21-rc2, and my
> kernel is smaller. Good decision to rip out Stephane's stuff, Linus!
> > As I did not get a reply from Andrew I hope that the buggy stuff
> residing in 2.6.20-mm1 ( freezing my apache services
> > - I already mentioned the problem some days ago - mm2 I did not try yet
> ) will never be pushed into vanilla mainline.
> > I owe some old CDROM and CDRW devices manufactured by TEAC (bought
> somewhen in 1999): CDR 540 and CDRW 54.
> > Those old CD devices sometimes get confused with drive seek errors and
> status errors shown in dmesg.
> > The newer DVD devices (LG reading device and Yamakawa burning device) do
> not show those errors at all.
> > As I have finished an enourmous project 6 weeks ago (transforming some
> 500 Audio CDs to MP3 format
> > with kaudiocreator and lame 3.97 (320 kbit quality - preset insane) and
> then burning the material on DVDs)
> > those old devices were an incredible help in some cases where the newer
> DVD devices refused to read some audio
> > CDs without errors. That's why I do not want to kick them off at all.
> Never had those troubles with kernel 2.6.19 and former ones.
> 
> > Dmesg 1 says on my AMD machine with a CDR540 as /dev/hdd during boot
> process:
> > hdd: media error (bad sector): status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete
> Error }
> > hdd: media error (bad sector): error=0x34 { AbortedCommand
> LastFailedSense=0x03 }
> > ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> > ATAPI device hdd:
> >   Error: Medium error -- (Sense key=0x03)
> >   (reserved error code) -- (asc=0x02, ascq=0x00)
> >   The failed "Read 10" packet command was:
> >   "28 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 "
> > end_request: I/O error, dev hdd, sector 64
> 
> Hmm. why does it try to read sector 64 during boot?
> 
> Could you make sure that there are not configuration files/options
> incorrectly
> referring to /dev/hdd (please grep you /etc and /boot for for "/dev/hdd")?
Thanks, I will try to do so.
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> > But even more crucial is this one:
> > Dmesg 2 says on the Intel machine with a TEAC CDRW54 as /dev/hdd:
> > hdd: status error: status=0x7f { DriveReady DeviceFault SeekComplete
> DataRequest CorrectedError Index Error }
> > hdd: status error: error=0x7f { IllegalLengthIndication EndOfMedia
> AbortedCommand MediaChangeRequested LastFailedSense=0x07 }
> > ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> > For about 1 second the whole system hangs while /dev/hdd is executing
> some kind of reinitialization, just like as if you unconnect
> > the data and the 12 V / 6V cable and reconnect them again while the
> machine is up and running.
> 
> It really looks like a hardware related problem (power supply/power
> cable).
But it is none, definitely not. There are also system hangups without that stupid reinitialization of the burning device. No idea where the reason for that may stay, but I swear I am gonna do my best to find out.
> 
> > For a DVB-S record f. ex. the breakdown of the recording can be one
> consequence.
> > Question: Can someone reading this please confirm these errors? Please
> take old CD devices to find out, not newer ones or even DVD devices!
> > I am using the standard IDE driver with the following chipsets: Intel
> ICH4 and SIS 5513. And please take time, as these crucial errors do not
> happen
> > immediately, but about 4 times in about 8 - 10 hours while the machine
> is up and running.
> 
> The "randomness" of the issue is another indicator that it could be power
> related.  Could it be that the issue happens when the system is rather
> busy?
It is not busy at all, but it happens.
> 
> > Yours sincerely and thanks for all your efforts
> > 
> > Uwe
> > P. S.: I do not think this is a hardware error as I did not have those
> problems with kernels <= 2.6.19.
> 
> I went through 2.6.19 -> 2.6.20 IDE changes and it is highly unlikely that
> the breakage is caused by IDE driver.  Anyway to be sure I've prepared a
> patch for you:
> 
> 	http://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/bart/ide-2.6.20.patch#
Great! I am gonna revert this one and keep on testing. But it takes time and the machine must run several hours. If it is not IDE related then it may be time related. Anyway that is the most crucial bug I have ever tried to trace. More evil like a virus!
> 
> it contains all 2.6.19 -> 2.6.20 IDE changes - we need to know whether the
> 2.6.20 kernel with the above patch reversed (applied with -R) works.
> 
> [ If it still won't work with the patch applied that must be some other
> thing
>   and we are left with trying git bisect or a lot of unreliable guesswork.
> ]
> 
> Please also post (preferably by filling bug at http://bugzilla.kernel.org)
> outputs of dmesg and lspci -vvvxxx commands from 2.6.19 and 2.6.20 so we
> can
> check if anything changed in the way that ATA devices/hosts are programmed
> on your systems between 2.6.19 and 2.6.20.
> 
> I'm also cc:ing our new ide-cd Maintainer (Hi Alan) who may shed some more
> light on the problems.
> 
> PS please always cc: linux-ide mailing list on ATA problems, problems
> won't
> get fixed if information about them doesn't reach the right people...
> 
> Thanks,
> Bart

1000 thanks to you

Uwe

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Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

[Uwe Bugla]

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:30:13 -0800 (PST)
Von: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
An: Uwe Bugla <uwe.bugla@gmx.de>
CC: akpm@linux-foundation.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Betreff: Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

> 
> 
> On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Uwe Bugla wrote:
> >
> > Hi folks,
> 
> Hi Uwe.
> 
> The thing is, nobody really reads your emails. Why?
> 
>  - you're too abrasive.
> 
>    Hey, I'm not the most polite person either, but when you complain about
>    other maintainers doing badly, you'd better try to show that you can do
>    better.
> 
>  - they are so horribly formatted that it's impossible to read them.
> 
>    Quote appropriately, and use correct whitespace. That means wrapping 
>    long lines, proper paragraphs, and it means whitespace in between 
>    paragraphs and the things you quote.
> 
> I really would suggest you try to fix these issues, as I strongly suspect 
> that people skip over your messages as it is now.
> 
> 		Linus
Thanks Linus. I will try my best to learn from your criticism.
But please do not compare me with maintainers, especially never in this life with the suboptimal one from linuxtv.org being in question.
a. I ain't no maintainer
b. As far as my virtues are concerned in comparison to his the comparison
is completely displaced.

Above that it feels good to have people like you.

Best regards

Uwe



-- 
Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! 
Ideal für Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer

Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

[Linus Torvalds]

[ Whitespace in your email fixed so that it's easier to read again ;^]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2007, Uwe Bugla wrote:
>
> But please do not compare me with maintainers, especially never in this 
> life with the suboptimal one from linuxtv.org being in question.
>
>  a. I ain't no maintainer

Sure. The problem is that it's actually really really hard (read: almost 
totally impossible) to find a person that everybody will agree is a good 
maintainer. It's just a really hard job, and we all screw up.

Not just from a technical angle too - quite often, the biggest problem for 
a maintainer is just the people skills. There's a fair number of people 
that are good at technology but have no people skills what-so-ever, and 
those are usually *worse* maintainers than people who may not be 100% up 
on all the technical issues, but have no problem working with people who 
do.

Finding somebody who is both technically top-notch *and* can work with 
people is so rare as to be something you shouldn't even look for. That's 
especially true since quite often, maintainership doesn't even come with a 
lot of glory - just a lot of work, and the expectation that you always be 
there. 

So when you call maintainers suboptimal, please realize that:

 - We're *all* suboptimal.

   I personally, of course, am totally perfect, and never ever make any 
   mistakes (did I already mention that I'm also good-looking?) but even 
   despite my obviously superior features, some people have the temerity 
   to point out that they think I make mistakes and argue way too much.

   So imagine that if people can find fault in the absolute perfection 
   that is Linus "almost Godlike" Torvalds, what about some poor sap who 
   maintains a piece of hardware with crappy documentation and a difficult 
   user base? And he doesn't even get the recognition that I do, so he's 
   just left with tons of abuse and may not be paid to do what he wants to 
   do, so he has to do other work *too*.

 - if you want to change something, it's fine to not be entirely polite 
   all the time: Al Viro and Christoph "is my hair blue this week?" 
   Hellwig are *famous* for being blunt bastards that are negative as hell 
   (and hey, so am I), but they are also well-known for getting things 
   done and mostly being right.

   And building that up takes time.

>  b. As far as my virtues are concerned in comparison to his the 
>     comparison is completely displaced.

Well, not entirely. The thing is, we all have "mental filters". Like it or 
not, people get associated with what they do, and even if they then do 
something totally different in another setting, the association remains. 
I'm just saying..

		Linus

Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

[Uwe Bugla]

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:57:34 -0800 (PST)
Von: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
An: Uwe Bugla <uwe.bugla@gmx.de>
CC: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, akpm@linux-foundation.org
Betreff: Re: bugs in kernel 2.6.21 (both two release candidates) and kernel 2.6.20

> 
Hello Linus,
> 
> [ Whitespace in your email fixed so that it's easier to read again ;^]
> 
Thanks.
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2007, Uwe Bugla wrote:
> >
> > But please do not compare me with maintainers, especially never in this 
> > life with the suboptimal one from linuxtv.org being in question.
> >
> >  a. I ain't no maintainer
> 
> Sure. The problem is that it's actually really really hard (read: almost 
> totally impossible) to find a person that everybody will agree is a good 
> maintainer. It's just a really hard job, and we all screw up.
> 

I know.

> Not just from a technical angle too - quite often, the biggest problem for
> a maintainer is just the people skills.

Exactly! Although I had a lot of positive experiences in connection with mm-tree bug fixing. Ask Andrew if you do not believe. 

There's a fair number of people 
> that are good at technology but have no people skills what-so-ever, and 
> those are usually *worse* maintainers than people who may not be 100% up 
> on all the technical issues, but have no problem working with people who 
> do.

You are definitely right.

> 
> Finding somebody who is both technically top-notch *and* can work with 
> people is so rare as to be something you shouldn't even look for. That's 
> especially true since quite often, maintainership doesn't even come with a
> lot of glory - just a lot of work, and the expectation that you always be 
> there.

Yes. But I am the last one to avoid a "thank you" or "well done" if I notice that I have met someone doing a pretty good job! Positive motivation, OK?

> 
> So when you call maintainers suboptimal, please realize that:
> 
>  - We're *all* suboptimal.

Of course. But the one in question @linuxtv.org is extreme as far as this is concerned.

> 
>    I personally, of course, am totally perfect, and never ever make any 
>    mistakes (did I already mention that I'm also good-looking?) but even 
>    despite my obviously superior features, some people have the temerity 
>    to point out that they think I make mistakes and argue way too much.

a. I am good-looking too. If you doubt, ask my women, (yes plural!) they will agree.

b. Apart from the sarcastical background of that statement your biggest fault is that you have been publishing horrible kernels since December 2006. The speed (1 release candidate almost every week) is too high, completely insane.

The result is crap code as hell in official release candidates.
To get those regressions fixed you feel like a hamster in a running wheel.
It simply feels inhuman, like a robot.

I remember Michael Krufky posting something like: "Linus, this code needs more testing". And your answer was: "Too late, already being pushed!"
See, Linus, you cannot go on like this, so please slow down now, man!

I can very well understand Andrew asking me to test the mm-tree which conforms to something like a filter system for buggy code. But when should I do this if I need a machine running for 10 hours to wait that the "hopefully" last regression in kernel 2.6.20 can be identified? And fixed by Bart or Alan hopefully?


And if I cannot even trust in the fact that an official rc is sane, how should I or anybody else draw conclusions which module or which hunks are faulty then in some mm-tree? And I still do not know how to do git bisecting. Never done that.
You cannot test the quality of the roof of a house if its fundament is faulty and buggy like hell, can you?? SLOW DOWN MAN!

> 
>    So imagine that if people can find fault in the absolute perfection 
>    that is Linus "almost Godlike" Torvalds, what about some poor sap who 
>    maintains a piece of hardware with crappy documentation and a difficult
>    user base? And he doesn't even get the recognition that I do, so he's 
>    just left with tons of abuse and may not be paid to do what he wants to
>    do, so he has to do other work *too*.

I guess I can see through the problem.
> 
>  - if you want to change something, it's fine to not be entirely polite 
>    all the time: Al Viro and Christoph "is my hair blue this week?" 
>    Hellwig are *famous* for being blunt bastards that are negative as hell
>    (and hey, so am I), but they are also well-known for getting things 
>    done and mostly being right.
> 
>    And building that up takes time.


Who is Al Viro and Christoph? The two examples of the reproduction of your personal genetic code I suppose?


> 
> >  b. As far as my virtues are concerned in comparison to his the 
> >     comparison is completely displaced.
> 
> Well, not entirely. The thing is, we all have "mental filters". Like it or
> not, people get associated with what they do, and even if they then do 
> something totally different in another setting, the association remains. 
> I'm just saying..


Maybe. The power of prejudice.
But, as I stated already: There is nothing that I hate more than people providing an opinion towards everything but, at the same time, no behaviour towards nothing - they are a pest, they are a cholera, they are a disease.


> 
> 		Linus


But, dear Linus, the facts stay:

1. A maintainer who produces 4 unusable kernels and, at the same time discourages capable contributors is a mismatch. So substitution is the only solution for the person in question. Even then if there will be a gap for some time.

2. I pick up the things necessary for me and want to share them by trying to get them implied into vanilla, but they are still waiting for a signature which is an act of 10 minutes or even 5 minutes. And that is the incredible thing that cannot go on like this, can it?

3. If I would have enough knowledge in some dvb terms I would volunteer for being maintainer without hesitation.
But my personal advantages are rather more situated in profound knowledge about music and linguistics.

Yours sincerely

Uwe

Once again, please: Slow down the kernel release speed!
(100 times underlined!)

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