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From: Liam Beguin <liambeguin@gmail.com>
To: Peter Rosin <peda@axentia.se>
Cc: jic23@kernel.org, lars@metafoo.de, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-iio@vger.kernel.org, devicetree@vger.kernel.org,
	robh+dt@kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v8 09/14] iio: afe: rescale: fix accuracy for small
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 00:41:21 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <YSsP8aWU2uFBOt6M@shaak> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <c63fb63f-884d-0ffb-b25c-bac591f169f7@axentia.se>

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 11:53:14AM +0200, Peter Rosin wrote:
> On 2021-08-24 22:28, Liam Beguin wrote:
> > On Mon Aug 23, 2021 at 00:18:55 +0200, Peter Rosin wrote:
> >> [I started to write an answer to your plans in the v7 thread, but didn't
> >> have time to finish before v8 appeared...]
> >>
> >> On 2021-08-20 21:17, Liam Beguin wrote:
> >>> From: Liam Beguin <lvb@xiphos.com>
> >>>
> >>> The approximation caused by integer divisions can be costly on smaller
> >>> scale values since the decimal part is significant compared to the
> >>> integer part. Switch to an IIO_VAL_INT_PLUS_NANO scale type in such
> >>> cases to maintain accuracy.
> >>
> > 
> > Hi Peter,
> > 
> > Thanks for taking time to look at this in detail again. I really
> > appreciate all the feedback you've provided.
> > 
> >> The conversion to int-plus-nano may also carry a cost of accuracy.
> >>
> >> 90/1373754273 scaled by 261/509 is 3.359e-8, the old code returns 3.348e-8,
> >> but the new one gets you 3.3e-8 (0.000000033, it simply cannot provide more
> >> digits). So, in this case you lose precision with the new code.
> >>
> >> Similar problem with 100 / 2^30 scaled by 3782/7000. It is 5.032e-8, the old
> >> code returns 5.029e-8, but the new one gets you the inferior 5.0e-8.
> >>
> > 
> > I see what you mean here.
> > I added test cases with these values to see exactly what we get.
> 
> Excellent!
> 
> > 
> > Expected rel_ppm < 0, but
> >     rel_ppm == 1000000
> > 
> >      real=0.000000000
> >  expected=0.000000033594
> > # iio_rescale_test_scale: not ok 42 - v8 - 90/1373754273 scaled by 261/509
> > Expected rel_ppm < 0, but
> >     rel_ppm == 1000000
> > 
> >      real=0.000000000
> >  expected=0.000000050318
> > # iio_rescale_test_scale: not ok 43 - v8 - 100/1073741824 scaled by 3782/7000
> > 
> > 
> > The main issue is that the first two examples return 0 which night be worst
> > that loosing a little precision.
> 
> They shouldn't return zero?
> 
> Here's the new code quoted from the test robot (and assuming
> a 64-bit machine, thus ignoring the 32-bit problem on line 56).
> 
>     36		case IIO_VAL_FRACTIONAL:
>     37		case IIO_VAL_FRACTIONAL_LOG2:
>     38			tmp = (s64)*val * 1000000000LL;
>     39			tmp = div_s64(tmp, rescale->denominator);
>     40			tmp *= rescale->numerator;
>     41	
>     42			tmp = div_s64_rem(tmp, 1000000000LL, &rem);
>     43			*val = tmp;
>     44	
>     45			/*
>     46			 * For small values, the approximation can be costly,
>     47			 * change scale type to maintain accuracy.
>     48			 *
>     49			 * 100 vs. 10000000 NANO caps the error to about 100 ppm.
>     50			 */
>     51			if (scale_type == IIO_VAL_FRACTIONAL)
>     52				tmp = *val2;
>     53			else
>     54				tmp = 1 << *val2;
>     55	
>   > 56			 if (abs(rem) > 10000000 && abs(*val / tmp) < 100) {
>     57				 *val = div_s64_rem(*val, tmp, &rem2);
>     58	
>     59				 *val2 = div_s64(rem, tmp);
>     60				 if (rem2)
>     61					 *val2 += div_s64(rem2 * 1000000000LL, tmp);
>     62	
>     63				 return IIO_VAL_INT_PLUS_NANO;
>     64			 }
>     65	
>     66			return scale_type;
> 
> When I go through the above manually, I get:
> 
> line 
> 38: tmp = 90000000000    ; 90 * 1000000000
> 39: tmp = 176817288      ; 90000000000 / 509
> 40: tmp = 46149312168    ; 176817288 * 261
> 42: rem = 149312168      ; 46149312168 % 1000000000
>     tmp = 46             ; 46149312168 / 1000000000
> 43: *val = 46
> 51: if (<fractional>) [yes]
> 52: tmp = 1373754273
> 56: if (149312168 > 10000000 && 46/1373754273 < 100) [yes && yes]
> 57: rem2 = 46            ; 46 % 1373754273
>     *val = 0             ; 46 / 1373754273
> 59: *val2 = 0            ; 149312168 / 1373754273
> 60: if 46 [yes]
> 61: *val2 = 33           ; 0 + 46 * 1000000000 / 1373754273
> 63: return <int-plus-nano> [0.000000033]
> 
> and
> 
> line 
> 38: tmp = 100000000000   ; 100 * 1000000000
> 39: tmp = 14285714       ; 100000000000 / 7000
> 40: tmp = 54028570348    ; 176817288 * 3782
> 42: rem = 28570348       ; 54028570348 % 1000000000
>     tmp = 54             ; 54028570348 / 1000000000
> 43: *val = 54
> 51: if (<fractional>) [no]
> 54: tmp = 1073741824     ; 1 << 30
> 56: if (28570348 > 10000000 && 54/1073741824 < 100) [yes && yes]
> 57: rem2 = 54            ; 54 % 1073741824
>     *val = 0             ; 54 / 1073741824
> 59: *val2 = 0            ; 28570348 / 1073741824
> 60: if 46 [yes]
> 61: *val2 = 50           ; 0 + 54 * 1000000000 / 1073741824
> 63: return <int-plus-nano> [0.000000050]
> 
> Why do you get zero, what am I missing?

So... It turns out, I swapped schan and rescaler values which gives us:

numerator = 90
denominator = 1373754273
schan_val = 261
schan_val2 = 509

line
38: tmp = 261000000000   ; 261 * 1000000000
39: tmp = 189            ; 261000000000 / 1373754273
40: tmp = 17010          ; 189 * 90
42: rem = 17010          ; 17010 % 1000000000
    tmp = 0              ; 17010 / 1000000000
43: *val = 0
51: if (<fractional>) [yes]
52: tmp = 509
56: if (17010 > 10000000 && 0/509 < 100) [no && yes]
66: *val = 0
    *val2 = 509
    return <fractional> [0.000000000]

Swapping back the values, I get the same results as you!

Also, replacing line 56 from the snippet above with

	- if (abs(rem) > 10000000 && abs(div64_s64(*val, tmp)) < 100) {
	+ if (abs(rem)) {

Fixes these precision errors. It also prevents us from returning
different scales if we swap the two divisions (schan and rescaler
parameters).

> 
> > At the same time, I wonder how "real" these values would be. Having such a
> > small scale would mean having a large raw value. With 16-bits of resolution,
> > that would still give about (1 << 16) * 3.3594e-08 = 0.002201616 mV.
> 
> If we cap at 16 bits it sounds as if we probably erase some precision
> provided by 24-bit ADCs. We have drivers for those. I didn't really
> dig that deep in the driver offerings, but I did find a AD7177 ADC
> (but no driver) which is 32-bit. If we don't have any 32-bit ADC driver
> yet, it's only a matter of time, methinks. I have personally worked
> with 24-bit DACs, and needed every last bit...
> 

I was only using 16-bits as an example, but I guess you're right, these
values do start to make sense when you're looking at 24-bit and 32-bit
ADCs.

> > We could try to get more precision out of the first division
> > 
> > 	tmp = (s64)*val * 1000000000LL;
> > 	tmp = div_s64(tmp, rescale->denominator);
> > 	tmp *= rescale->numerator;
> > 	tmp = div_s64_rem(tmp, 1000000000LL, &rem);
> > 
> > But then, we'd be more likely to overflow. What would be a good middle
> > ground?
> 
> I don't think we can settle for anything that makes any existing case
> worse. That's a regression waiting to happen, and what to do then?
> 

Agreed, and looking at this more, there's still ways to improve without
having to compromise.
Hopefully adding the test suite will make it easier to catch potential
regressions in the future :-)

> >> I'm also wondering if it is wise to not always return the same scale type?
> >> What happens if we want to extend this driver to scale a buffered channel?
> >> Honest question! I don't know, but I fear that this patch may make that
> >> step more difficult to take??
> > 
> > That's a fair point, I didn't know it could be a problem to change
> > scale.
> 
> I don't *know* either? But it would not be completely alien to me if
> the buffered case assumes "raw" numbers, and that there is little room
> for "meta-data" with each sample.
> 
> >>
> >> Jonathan, do you have any input on that?
> >>
> >> Some more examples of problematic properties of this patch:
> >>
> >> 21837/24041 scaled by 427/24727 is 0.01568544672, you get 0.015685446. Ok.
> >> But if you reduce the input number, gcd(21837, 24041) -> 29, you have:
> >> 753/829 scaled by 427/24727 which still is 0.01568544672 of course, but in
> >> this case you get 0.01568154403. Which is less precise. It is unfortunate
> >> that input that should be easier to scale may yield worse results.
> > 
> > Expected rel_ppm < 0, but
> >     rel_ppm == 0
> > 
> >      real=0.015685445
> >  expected=0.015685446719
> > # iio_rescale_test_scale: not ok 44 - v8 - 21837/24041 scaled by 427/24727
> > Expected rel_ppm < 0, but
> >     rel_ppm == 0
> > 
> >      real=0.015685445
> >  expected=0.015685446719
> > # iio_rescale_test_scale: not ok 45 - v8 - 753/829 scaled by 427/24727
> > 
> > It seems like both cases are rounded and give the same result. I do get
> > your point though, values that could be simplified might loose more
> > precision because of this change in scale type.
> 
> I aimed at this:
> 
> line
> 38: tmp = 21837000000000 ; 21837 * 1000000000
> 39: tmp = 883123710      ; 21837000000000 / 24727
> 40: tmp = 377093824170   ; 883123710 * 427
> 42: rem = 93824170       ; 377093824170 % 1000000000
>     tmp = 377            ; 377093824170 / 1000000000
> 43: *val = 377
> 51: if (<fractional>) [yes]
> 52: tmp = 24041
> 56: if (149312168 > 10000000 && 377/24041 < 100) [yes && yes]
> 57: rem2 = 377           ; 377 % 24041
>     *val = 0             ; 377 / 24041
> 59: *val2 = 3902         ; 93824170 / 24041
> 60: if 377 [yes]
> 61: *val2 = 15685446     ; 3902 + 377 * 1000000000 / 24041
> 63: return <int-plus-nano> [0.0015685446]
> 
> Why does the test output a 5 at the end and not a 6? It's all
> integer arithmetic so there is no room for rounding issues.
> 
> and
> 
> line 
> 38: tmp = 753000000000   ; 753 * 1000000000
> 39: tmp = 30452541       ; 753000000000 / 24727
> 40: tmp = 13003235007    ; 30452541 * 427
> 42: rem = 3235007        ; 13003235007 % 1000000000
>     tmp = 13             ; 13003235007 / 1000000000
> 43: *val = 13
> 51: if (<fractional>) [yes]
> 52: tmp = 829
> 56: if (3235007 > 10000000 && 13/829 < 100) [no && yes]
> 66: return <fractional> [13/829 ~= 0.015681544]
> 
> 0.015681544 is pretty different from 0.015685446
> 
> Again, I don't understand what's going on.
> 
> >>
> >> 760/1373754273 scaled by 427/2727 is 8.662580e-8, and 8.662393e-8 is
> >> returned. Which is perhaps not great accuracy, but such is life. However.
> >> 761/1373754273 scaled by 427/2727 is 8.673978e-8, which is of course
> >> greater, but 8.6e-8 is returned. Which is less than what was returned for
> >> the smaller 760/1373754273 value above.
> > 
> > Expected rel_ppm < 0, but
> >     rel_ppm == 1000000
> > 
> >      real=0.000000000
> >  expected=0.000000086626
> > # iio_rescale_test_scale: not ok 46 - v8 - 760/1373754273 scaled by 427/2727
> > Expected rel_ppm < 0, but
> >     rel_ppm == 1000000
> > 
> >      real=0.000000000
> >  expected=0.000000086740
> > # iio_rescale_test_scale: not ok 47 - v8 - 761/1373754273 scaled by 427/2727
> > 
> > We fall into the same case as the first two examples where the real value is
> > null.
> 
> I aimed at
> 
> line
> 38: tmp = 760000000000   ; 760 * 1000000000
> 39: tmp = 278694536      ; 760000000000 / 2727
> 40: tmp = 119002566872   ; 278694536 * 427
> 42: rem = 2566872        ; 119002566872 % 1000000000
>     tmp = 119            ; 119002566872 / 1000000000
> 43: *val = 119
> 51: if (<fractional>) [yes]
> 52: tmp = 1373754273
> 56: if (2566872 > 10000000 && 119/1373754273 < 100) [no && yes]
> 66: return <fractional> [119/1373754273 ~= 0.000000086624]
> 
> and
> 
> line
> 38: tmp = 761000000000   ; 761 * 1000000000
> 39: tmp = 279061239      ; 761000000000 / 2727
> 40: tmp = 119159149053   ; 279061239 * 427
> 42: rem = 159149053      ; 119159149053 % 1000000000
>     tmp = 119            ; 119159149053 / 1000000000
> 43: *val = 119
> 51: if (<fractional>) [yes]
> 52: tmp = 1373754273
> 56: if (159149053 > 10000000 && 119/1373754273 < 100) [yes && yes]
> 57: rem2 = 119           ; 119 % 1373754273
>     *val = 0             ; 119 / 1373754273
> 59: *val2 = 0            ; 159149053 / 1373754273
> 60: if 119 [yes]
> 61: *val2 = 86           ; 0 + 119 * 1000000000 / 1373754273
> 63: return <int-plus-nano> [0.000000086]
> 
> > Considering these null values and the possible issue of not always having the
> > same scale type, would it be better to always return an IIO_VAL_INT_PLUS_NANO
> > scale?
> 
> No, that absolutely kills the precision for small values that are much
> better off as-is. The closer you get to zero, the more the conversion
> to int-plus-nano hurts, relatively speaking.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The point of switching to
IIO_VAL_INT_PLUS_NANO at the moment is to get more precision on small
values. Am I missing something?

> 
> >>
> >> Some of these objections are related to what I talked about in v7, i.e.:
> >>
> >>     Also, changing the calculation so that you get more precision whenever that is
> >>     possible feels dangerous. I fear linearity breaks and that bigger input cause
> >>     smaller output due to rounding if the bigger value has to be rounded down, but
> >>     that this isn't done carefully enough. I.e. attempting to return an exact
> >>     fraction and only falling back to the old code when that is not possible is
> >>     still not safe since the old code isn't careful enough about rounding. I think
> >>     it is really important that bigger input cause bigger (or equal) output.
> >>     Otherwise you might trigger instability in feedback loops should a rescaler be
> >>     involved in a some regulator function.
> > 
> > I think I didn't read this closely enought the first time around. I agree that
> > bigger inputs should cause bigger outputs, especially with these rounding
> > errors. My original indention was to have all scales withing a tight margin,
> > that's why I ended up going with ppm for the test cases.
> > 
> >>
> >> Sadly, I see no elegant solution to your problem.
> >>
> >> One way forward may be to somehow provide information on the expected
> >> input range, and then determine the scaling method based on that
> >> instead of the individual values. But, as indicated, there's no real
> >> elegance in that. It can't be automated...
> > 
> > I guess the issue with that is that unless it's a user parameter, we're
> > always going go have these little islands you mentioned in v7...
> > 
> > Would it be viable to guaranty a MICRO precision instead of NANO, and
> > not have the range parameter?
> 
> I don't get what you mean here? Returning int-plus-micro can't be it,
> since that would be completely pointless and only make it easier to
> trigger accuracy problems of the conversion. However, I feel that any
> attempt to shift digits but still having the same general approch will
> just change the size and position of the islands, and thus not fix the
> fundamental problematic border between land and water.

My apologies, discard this last comment. I was suggesting to guaranty
less precision, but consistent over the full range. I don't believe
that's a viable option.

Thanks again for your time,
Liam

> 
> Cheers,
> Peter
> 
> >>
> >>> Signed-off-by: Liam Beguin <lvb@xiphos.com>
> >>> ---
> >>>  drivers/iio/afe/iio-rescale.c | 27 +++++++++++++++++++++++++--
> >>>  1 file changed, 25 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> >>>
> >>> diff --git a/drivers/iio/afe/iio-rescale.c b/drivers/iio/afe/iio-rescale.c
> >>> index c408c4057c08..7304306c9806 100644
> >>> --- a/drivers/iio/afe/iio-rescale.c
> >>> +++ b/drivers/iio/afe/iio-rescale.c
> >>> @@ -22,7 +22,7 @@ int rescale_process_scale(struct rescale *rescale, int scale_type,
> >>>  			  int *val, int *val2)
> >>>  {
> >>>  	s64 tmp;
> >>> -	s32 rem;
> >>> +	s32 rem, rem2;
> >>>  	u32 mult;
> >>>  	u32 neg;
> >>>  
> >>> @@ -38,8 +38,31 @@ int rescale_process_scale(struct rescale *rescale, int scale_type,
> >>>  		tmp = (s64)*val * 1000000000LL;
> >>>  		tmp = div_s64(tmp, rescale->denominator);
> >>>  		tmp *= rescale->numerator;
> >>> -		tmp = div_s64(tmp, 1000000000LL);
> >>> +
> >>> +		tmp = div_s64_rem(tmp, 1000000000LL, &rem);
> >>>  		*val = tmp;
> >>> +
> >>> +		/*
> >>> +		 * For small values, the approximation can be costly,
> >>> +		 * change scale type to maintain accuracy.
> >>> +		 *
> >>> +		 * 100 vs. 10000000 NANO caps the error to about 100 ppm.
> >>> +		 */
> >>> +		if (scale_type == IIO_VAL_FRACTIONAL)
> >>> +			tmp = *val2;
> >>> +		else
> >>> +			tmp = 1 << *val2;
> >>> +
> >>> +		 if (abs(rem) > 10000000 && abs(*val / tmp) < 100) {
> >>> +			 *val = div_s64_rem(*val, tmp, &rem2);
> >>> +
> >>> +			 *val2 = div_s64(rem, tmp);
> >>> +			 if (rem2)
> >>> +				 *val2 += div_s64(rem2 * 1000000000LL, tmp);
> >>
> >> rem2 is 32-bit. Might 1000000000LL also be 32-bit on a small machine
> >> where 64-bit arithmetic is really expensive? In that case, the above
> >> is broken. The safe route is to do these things as in the existing
> >> code with a cast to s64. But maybe that's just cargo cult crap?
> > 
> > You're right, this should be
> > 
> > 	div_s64((s64)rem2 * 1000000000LL, tmp);
> > 
> > I've been trying th get the kunit tests running on a 32-bit kernel image, but
> > I'm still having issues with that...
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Liam
> > 
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>> +
> >>> +			 return IIO_VAL_INT_PLUS_NANO;
> >>> +		 }
> >>> +
> >>>  		return scale_type;
> >>>  	case IIO_VAL_INT_PLUS_NANO:
> >>>  	case IIO_VAL_INT_PLUS_MICRO:
> >>>
> >>

  reply	other threads:[~2021-08-29  4:41 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 39+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-08-20 19:17 [PATCH v8 00/14] iio: afe: add temperature rescaling support Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 01/14] iio: inkern: apply consumer scale on IIO_VAL_INT cases Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 02/14] iio: inkern: apply consumer scale when no channel scale is available Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 03/14] iio: inkern: make a best effort on offset calculation Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 04/14] iio: afe: rescale: expose scale processing function Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 05/14] iio: afe: rescale: add INT_PLUS_{MICRO,NANO} support Liam Beguin
2021-08-26  8:11   ` Peter Rosin
2021-08-29  2:50     ` Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 06/14] iio: afe: rescale: add offset support Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 07/14] iio: afe: rescale: use s64 for temporary scale calculations Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 08/14] iio: afe: rescale: reduce risk of integer overflow Liam Beguin
2021-08-26  9:13   ` Peter Rosin
2021-08-29  4:01     ` Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 09/14] iio: afe: rescale: fix accuracy for small fractional scales Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 23:37   ` kernel test robot
2021-08-21  1:33     ` Liam Beguin
2021-08-23  6:53       ` Peter Rosin
2021-08-21  2:00   ` kernel test robot
2021-08-21  7:21   ` kernel test robot
2021-08-22 22:18   ` Peter Rosin
2021-08-24 20:28     ` [PATCH v8 09/14] iio: afe: rescale: fix accuracy for small Liam Beguin
2021-08-26  9:53       ` Peter Rosin
2021-08-29  4:41         ` Liam Beguin [this message]
2021-08-30 11:27           ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-09-11 23:31             ` Liam Beguin
2021-08-30 13:03           ` Peter Rosin
2021-09-11 23:20             ` Liam Beguin
2021-08-30 11:22     ` [PATCH v8 09/14] iio: afe: rescale: fix accuracy for small fractional scales Jonathan Cameron
2021-08-30 14:30       ` Peter Rosin
2021-08-30 17:03         ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-09-02  2:27         ` Liam Beguin
2021-09-02 21:52           ` Peter Rosin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 10/14] iio: test: add basic tests for the iio-rescale driver Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 11/14] iio: afe: rescale: add RTD temperature sensor support Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 12/14] iio: afe: rescale: add temperature transducers Liam Beguin
2021-08-26  8:56   ` Peter Rosin
2021-08-29  2:33     ` Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 13/14] dt-bindings: iio: afe: add bindings for temperature-sense-rtd Liam Beguin
2021-08-20 19:17 ` [PATCH v8 14/14] dt-bindings: iio: afe: add bindings for temperature transducers Liam Beguin

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